#FA Success Ep 369: Breaking Through To New Growth By Changing Your Mindset Around Hiring (Complementary) Team Members, With Michelle Ogden

Resources Featured In This Episode:

• Michelle Ogden
• Odgen Wealth
• Charles Schwab
• Carson Partners
• Edelman Financial
• Ron Carson
• Ric Edelman
• Morningstar
• Kaplan Financial
• Monster.com
• Pension Protection Act of 2008
• EMAP
• Why TAMPs And Outsourced Investment Management Are The Future For Most Advisors
• Kingdom Advisors
• LPL Financial
• Acorns
• Robin Hood
• Schwab Intelligent Portfolios
• Central Florida Christian Chamber

Looking for sample client service calendars, marketing plans, and more? Check out our FAS resource page!

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Full Transcript:

Michael: Welcome, Michelle Ogden, to the "Financial Advisor Success" Podcast.

Michelle: Thank you for having me, Michael.

Michael: I really appreciate you joining us. I'm looking forward to the discussion today around just the ways that our own mindsets and approach to the financial advisory business, to being a financial advisor, change as we go through the journey of being an advisor. I find there's so much to take in, in working as an advisor in all the different domains we have to deal with, serving clients, and getting clients, and growing the business and managing the business. Then to be managing a team and there's technology stuff and platform choices. There's all this stuff that we have to do and manage and figure out to build success in the industry. And some of it you can kind of learn about and read about. Obviously, we publish about a lot of it on kitces.com. But there's always some layer of it that just you have to do it, and you have to live it and you have to find the version that works for you, which usually involves finding versions that don't work for you, and a then making changes and shifting your mindset another direction. And I know you have lived a lot of those challenges that come along the way from the journey that, to me, I'm excited to talk about the, I think about the mindset shifts that come along as we try to build our career as an advisor, and hit those setbacks and then have to figure out how are we going to do this differently going forward if we want this to go better than it has been.

Michelle: Absolutely. I am reminded actually, I vowed to never get into this industry when I interned at a very large brokerage firm in the late '90s. And never say never.

Michael: What was your experience then that made you vow to not get into the industry?

Michelle: It was very male-dominated, and I had a night job as well and I'm interning during the day. And you know how back then, in the '90s, there was also an intern in the president's arena going on. And it was crazy because I knew what was going on there but it was almost the same there in that they were coming to my night job and just making me feel very uncomfortable. And I was like, I don't like this environment.

Michael: The brokers from the day job internship were coming to your night job to visit?

Michelle: Right and make me feel uncomfortable. And I reported it to the boss. He turned it all around on me because apparently, I didn't know it, but that particular person was married. And so, me bringing that to their attention kind of blew up everything there. And so, they just made me as uncomfortable as possible, and I quit, and got an F on the internship and vowed I do not want anything to do with this industry. These guys are pig-headed. I had such a bad taste for financial services.

Michael: That's quite horrific. Yeah. That's quite horrific. That fits a lot of very unfortunate movies that people make about our industry.

Michelle: And I'm so glad that that was a small piece of the picture, because a wonderful guy that was an advisor came into my night job and asked how the internship was going. I told him what happened and he said, "You should look where I work." And I ended up looking there, getting hired there and that's history. But you know how you say, "I'm never going to do that," and I was really depressed because I thought I knew what I wanted and then again, another hurdle, it was awful. But thankfully, I was exposed to another firm and it was not the norm and it was a great experience.

Michael: What was the other person, firm, path that you found?

Michelle: That was where I was an employee and it was like another five years of college in that we were learning, and growing, and being taught all kinds of great things and I just loved every minute of it. It was, I don't know if I can use names. Charles Schwab.

Michael: Yeah, please.

Michelle: I worked at Charles Schwab for five years and it was the best five years. I was actually such a huge Schwab cheerleader. When somebody would leave to go to another firm, I would try and talk them out of it, be like, "No, you got to stick it out here. It's the best." And then, the tech bubble burst and they started laying people off. Round after round after round of layoffs. I survived four rounds of layoffs and then I just knew the ship was sinking and I needed to make a move. My uncle asked me if I wanted to get into real estate and he asked me a very important question. He asked me how much I made at Charles Schwab. And in that moment, I didn't know if I should modify and add bonuses and potential income. And I just told him the truth and I was embarrassed because I knew everybody thought I made more. And he was like, "That's great. My friend can pay a base salary of $25,000 and you'd have bonuses and commissions." And that exposed me to being able to basically work for myself, know that I could produce an income and I didn't have to be afraid and have an employment.

Michael: Can I ask, what were you getting paid at Schwab at the time? What was the context as you're getting this offer?

Michelle: Would you believe I started there in 1999 and my starting salary was $23,700 for being a stockbroker. Then I worked my way up in rep one, rep two, I think I was making about $35,000 when I left there. Most people were making $45,000. They had stopped promoting and giving bonuses because the environment, we're lucky we have jobs.

Michael: Right. Pop of the tech bubble was April 2000 until the fall of 2002 and the markets just basically went down for three straight years, which was depressing in the investment business and pretty brutal when you're the leading online brokerage firm while everybody's becoming disillusioned with day trading.

Michelle: Right. And I remember when he called, my uncle called, I told him 35. And he said, "Well, my buddy can pay 25." And he was like, "The guy does really well. You'll just get your real estate license. You'll learn a bunch." And in my mind, I was like, "I can definitely make $10,000 in commissions." Little did I know I'd make almost six figures working in a completely different industry. And what was ironic was I missed the financial services, because going from where every second and every penny counts in a trading environment where people are calling in, you're placing trades and every second counts, to the real estate market, where everything takes 30 days and it's always sitting on someone's desk. It did not work with my ADHD very well, so I was dabbling in both, trying to help people with their finances, meanwhile doing the real estate and it was commercial real estate and it was really slow.

What Made The Schwab Environment So Amazing When Michelle’s Prior Firm Wasn't [10:47]

Michael: I want to come back to the real estate part, but I still want to understand a little bit more about the Schwab environment and what made this so amazing when the prior firm wasn't. Because nominally, it sounds like both these are basically "stockbroker jobs" of the time, of the era. You were talking to a large brokerage firm on the one end and it was a horrible experience. You talked to Schwab, which also in the stockbroker FC kind of role, but this was a wonderful job. What made it so different? What was so different that Schwab was so wonderful?

Michelle: When I was at the other firm, I was an intern. I wasn't licensed. I was basically just running to get coffee and look up files and try and help the advisors pull reports together, pull Morningstar. And when I went to Schwab, I actually got licensed. What I enjoyed the most, and this is really ridiculous, you could wear jeans because I was in the call center. And you could wear jeans and that made a huge difference for me because I was wearing heels and pantyhose and pressed shirts and tight skirts. I was dressed and up to the nines at the other firm. And here, I could just throw on my cowgirl boots, my jeans and a Schwab polo, and that was really comfortable for me because I don't like dressing in those stuffy suits and whatnot. And that made a difference. But the educational environment where they just constantly were teaching us and pouring into us, that really fed into my inner nerd. I love to learn and I'm like a sponge. I cannot get enough, especially in my favorite subject, financial planning and stocks and bonds and mutual funds, all that. It was all new territory.

Michael: Interesting. And what was the role itself?

Michelle: I became a registered rep. The first three months, I was customer service and learning everything I needed to learn to pass the Series 7 and the 63. And in my ignorance, I was painting my master bathroom the night before taking my 7. I did not realize that people were dropping like flies and not passing it. But I passed it with no problem, thank God, because I just bought a house. And the role was just basically people are calling in. So that's another thing I learned. The people calling in are Schwab clients. When I started my own firm, people calling in are not my clients. I do not owe them an explanation. I do not work for them already. That was a hard shift for me because I wanted to take ownership of every call that came in because I had learned that at Schwab. And it was a wonderful experience. I loved helping people from the beginning of the call until the end and I was very much like a teacher. And these people are do-it-yourselfers and they just needed guidance. So I loved my time there.

Michael: Very cool. And so then, what ultimately was the pull on the real estate side at the time, just Schwab is enjoyable but I feel like I've got more income and career growth for myself to go this real estate direction? Was that the appeal?

Michelle: Well, there was layoffs, there was rounds of layoffs and I survived four rounds of layoffs, but I really felt like this ship is sinking and I'm eventually going to get laid off. It didn't matter that I was considered an all-star, that I was one of the higher producing, very energetic people on the team. It didn't really matter if the whole team was laid off. So I took that opportunity when it presented itself, even though there was no guarantees there either. And my friends did end up getting laid off. And Greg, who works with me now, he got a package and he stayed until he got a package. But I just didn't want to go down. I was like, I wanted to kind of have some sort of control and I was always fascinated by the real estate market. That's a whole other market in itself so I learned a lot there, but like I said, I missed the financial planning side.

And my husband, at one point, he said, "Babe, you need to go back." And I'm very literal so I applied at Schwab. And thankfully, I didn't get the job and I was surprised too because I was like, did they pull my personnel file that I took the most calls? I was a very busy, productive employee. But with the message, and when I look back and reflecting as a wonderful thing, it was like, God wanted me to go back to financial services but he didn't want me to go around the mountain. He wanted me to climb the mountain with Him, leading by the way. And so, I went and got hired with a broker-dealer and if they say it's too good to be true, it is.

Michael: So it strikes me that one of the...there was a big fundamental shift in that your initial time with Schwab, the whole nature of it, is people are calling you. You don't have to go outbound to find clients. They're already clients of Schwab. They call you. They're already clients. You get to focus on service.

Michelle: Yes. And most of the time, they need help online or placing trades or making the decision and we could help them, guide them with those decisions.

Michael: So when you started on the real estate end, you had to go find clients and business and opportunities.

Michelle: Actually, I was extremely lucky in that I was the understudy to a gentleman that actually had four buildings he managed. And he was just overwhelmed and he needed help. So I was kind of like the integrator. He's the visionary and I could see things much clearer because he's got so much on his plate. So I helped him with all the deals he was already working, which was wonderful.

Michael: Okay. So you didn't have to worry about finding and sourcing commercial real estate deals.

Michelle: No.

Michael: It just strikes me, that's a fairly specialized domain of who's doing commercial real estate in particular.

Michelle: Absolutely. No. This was literally, he had never had anybody help him and he was very high producer and needed help. And I stepped in.

Michael: And so, that went well because he was doing well. Then you helped him be more successful in the thing that we was doing. But everything's moving paperwork 30 days at a time, so it's got a different pace to it.

Michelle: Very much so. I was there 7:00 in the morning ready to go. He'd come in at 9 and I've gotten everything done that I probably needed to do. So it was painfully slow, but it was good because it was profitable so it gave me a new perspective of how it would be if I did work for myself, that I'm very driven. I can make things happen. So it was wonderful, but at the same time, my husband did not like that I was helping people with their finances. They're friends. Hey, I need to help them pick out their mutual funds for their 401(k) or I need to help her set up a 529 for her new baby. He's like, "Babe, you've got a child. You can't do two different jobs." So when he told me I needed to go back, that's when I start...and your licenses are going to expire after two years.

Michael: So was that part of your trigger to make sure that you did not have more than 24 months from the end of Schwab until the next role?

Michelle: Yes. When I realized about a year in that I missed it, I started looking. And even the broker that I was working for in the real estate realm, he even was introducing me to people because he wanted what was best for me. And that was the trigger, but ironically, I came onboard with a broker-dealer and after the fact, my license expired January 12th. And they said, "Sorry, you're going to have to retest." I'm like, "I filled out all your paperwork literally two months ago." And they said, "We have a rule that if your license is going to expire within 90 days, you have to retest."

Michael: So after all that of going through to find someone anyways, they still made you retest.

Michelle: Yes. And I pouted for about a minute but I wanted to get my CFP and I was like, you know what? It's only going to help me pass the investment portion of the CFP even stronger. And I just, again, shifted my mindset from woe is me to how can this work for me. And I ordered the books and I took the test a week later, passed it. So I'm always excited to say, I didn't pass the 7 just once. I passed it twice. And then, I let it go.

Michael: So I've got to ask for all the people that have concerns about leaving the brokerage channel and the fear of if it lapses and I go back again, I have to retest. So what was it like taking it the second time? Is it like, oh, I've actually been doing this so long, this is all old hat. This is actually really easy when you've been doing it? Or did you actually have to go back and dig out a bunch of...

Michelle: I studied.

Michael: ...knowledge that you didn't remember the first time?

Michelle: I did study because I was worried, because again, knowing that people failed it, I didn't know. The first time I passed it, I didn't realize people were being let go left and right because they couldn't pass the 7. Again, ignorance is bliss to some extent. But then, having to take it the second time, I was like, I'm not taking this lightly because I've been out for a couple years and I did the cram course through, I don't remember if it was Kaplan or what one it was. But I did the intense one and then I...because I've always been a cram kind of person and I just crammed it all in and I went and took it and I passed. I was like, "Whew, thank you, Jesus."

Michael: So what was the new broker-dealer job? What was the new gig you took?

Michelle: So if it sounds too good to be true, it is. And I did not realize, again, ignorance is bliss, that insurance-based broker-dealers were different than investment-based broker-dealers. And a small insurance-based broker-dealer with a big name out of South Florida had posted a job up here and saw my resume, because it was on Monster. Do you remember that one?

Michael: Yeah, monster.com.

Michelle: It was on Monster from when I worked at Schwab and a couple years earlier it was on there still. So they reached out to me and they pitched this job that just sounded so amazing. I can work from home. Here I now have two babies. They reimbursed for CFP education. Everything you can imagine that you'd want. And they have an existing place within the school system. And if it sounds too good to be true, it is.

Michael: Oh, because they were selling for a 403(b) annuities to some school system.

Michelle: But they didn't. All the spots for their insurance company were taken, so I literally drove an hour out west of where I lived to get fingerprinted and try to get into that school system. And then, I finally just realized, okay, I have everything I need. I have a broker-dealer and I don't have to go to the school systems and represent them. I can do whatever I want. Let's go try and get clients. And I was too terrified to go and find an individual, so I went to businesses. And I started to look at their 401(k). I thought, you know what? That's kind of what I've been preparing to do as the 403(b) in the school system. So why don't I go out to businesses and look at their 401(k) and see if it's got lots of fees? This is before the Pension Protection Act of 2008. And it was so easy to find companies that say, "Oh, sure." That's part of their duty is to know that they're not overpaying. And I would do an analysis and it was funny, I would actually throw my broker-dealer under the bus and show them that you don't want their product. And I would put them in a different product. And so, it really built the trust that I was looking out for their best interest and I was being a fiduciary, although the product that my business card said was not the best product for them.

What Prompted Michelle's Shift From Individuals To Business 401(k) Plans And Forming Her Own RIA [23:17]

Michael: So talk to me more about this shift of I was, think you said, I was terrified to go get individuals, so I went to businesses to work with their 401(k) plans instead. I just want to understand more of that flow of logic for how you went that direction.

Michelle: I think it was mainly because mentally I was already stepping into the retirement plan space for the 403(b) with the school system. So I had mentally prepared myself to do that and I'd really looked into all the fees and unbundled versus bundled and was finding that there was so many hidden and these plans were ridden with fees. So it was almost like, I must go out...and I'm an advocate. I've got to save people money. And they don't know about this stuff. So that's kind of just what I did. And I also just didn't feel confident enough, I hadn't gotten my CFP yet. I was really just trying to find my way. And it was easier to talk to business owners. Even now, we have a lot of business owners as clients. And I don't know if that's because I'm a business owner and you kind of attract who you are.

Michael: Yeah. I was going to say, I talk to a lot of advisors that struggle more with business owners, find them more intimidating or more complex or more challenging to work with and skew towards the individual end. I'm fascinated that you are the other direction. Business owners was the comfortable space until you got your CFP verification and felt more confident with individuals.

Michelle: And I'm not saying that the business owners wanted me to manage their investments. They wanted me to handle the 401(k). And normally, the person I would be talking to to get in the door wasn't the business owner themselves. It was the person that would be, the operations person, and somebody would connect me with somebody and I'd get to talk to them. But you're right. Business owners make very challenging clients sometimes when they're used to controlling everything and the market's something they can't control. And they know I could put X amount of dollars in this new piece of equipment and make X return. So I hear what you're saying over business owners. But when it comes to their 401(k), a lot of them are like, "Oh, just handle it."

Michael: So how did you get your foot in the door to get to these businesses to get their 401(k) plans in the first place?

Michelle: Believe it or not, being in the commercial real estate, I'd met a lot of businesses that were in the buildings that we managed. And so, I had built some rapport with the people that handled signing their lease contracts, or if anything was going on with their space. So I just started with my warm market of businesses in my area and started making phone calls and let them know where I was at. No pressure. Just this is what I'm doing, if it can help you in any way, more service.

Michael: So then, what took you in the direction of CFP certification at that point?

Michelle: Even when I was at Schwab, I actually had started to sign up for the CFP right before everything shut down as far as the layoffs and whatnot. So I had always wanted to get the CFP even back in 1999. I literally signed up online virtual FSU CFP course in 1999 and then everything came to a halt. And again, they were going to reimburse me for my CFP. My broker-dealer said they reimburse for CFP? Again, they didn't. Only at a specific school. And there was just several things along the way that, I think that was my Christmas card. I said, "I need to get this Christmas card approved." And they're like, "Oh, you don't need to get that approved." And that's when I finally realized, this is just a small agency out of South Florida trying to expand their territory up here in Orlando. They don't know what they're doing. I was the subject matter expert with compliance at Schwab for my team and I know what needs to be approved. We cannot just send cards out to everybody if they haven't been approved. So it was like, three different things. They didn't reimburse the CFP. They told me I didn't need to get my Christmas card approved. And then, they made me retest.

It was like three strikes and I said, you know what? I think I'm wasting my time here. So formed my own RIA in June of '07, and I had gotten my CFP and I decided I'm going to go and do comprehensive financial planning. And God's going to provide. So I walked away from all my 12-b1 fees and all of that and it was like, giving up a child at the altar. I was like, you sure you want me to do this? But it was the right thing, looking back.

Michael: And so, where did you go? What did you do at that point?

Michelle: So I formed my own RIA with the state of Florida. And it was interesting because at Schwab, we were kind of under the impression that the institutional side of Schwab, oh, that's for big pensions over there and that's for CPAs that they don't have their 7. They really gave me, at least, the perspective that retail was different and institutional, that wasn't an option for someone like myself. And in 2007 when I formed my own RIA, I reached out to my friends at Schwab and started them as my custodian. And it was wonderful and exciting and terrifying all at the same time because they said, "Okay, as long as you get 10 million within your first year." No problem. Right. That's not that easy to do. I think I'm the only advisor that starts a firm with zero clients.

Michael: How did you land on the RIA path at that point?

Michelle: That's an excellent question because I didn't know that was an option. But I knew where I was at. I did not like the insurance answer for everything. It's this annuity. It's this policy. And a gentleman that I had worked with at Schwab had his own firm, and he was teaming up with another guy and they reached out to me and said, "Hey, do you want to be part of this? You could head our retirement plans." And I was very interested because I thought, they, I like people. I like them. This could be great. And they said, "No, we want you to be an employee." They didn't want me to be a partner in the firm. And I was like, well, I don't want to do that. And that's where I started looking into, I'll just do it myself.

Michael: So your entry was basically, another RIA made an offer. You didn't want the employee role but you were like, oh, you can do this RIA thing.

Michelle: I wish I hadn't spent so much time alone trying to build it by myself. Because when I formed it in 2007, it was literally 10 years before I partnered with Carson and that's a whole other segment.

Michael: Take me back to 2007. You've hung your own shingle. You started your own RIA because you didn't want to be an employee at someone else's. Help me understand that more. You didn't want to be an employee. You wanted to control. You wanted ownership. Something else? What was the trigger?

Michelle: It was probably a combination of all of that. Here, I did the commercial real estate for a couple years and really got a sense that I was entrepreneurial and I started other businesses as well. But it was probably control because that is the one thing that I have to admit I have struggled with for so long. And even surrendering and becoming part of Carson, it was just hard to give up control. So definitely...

Michael: You like the autonomy side.

Michelle: Yeah.

Michael: So you get in on the Schwab platform and they say, "Sure, but we are expecting 10 million in the first year. Go."

Michelle: Yes. Exactly.

Michael: So what happens now? How do you actually get started?

Michelle: It was so just every single day, just showing up at the office and putting in the time, making connections. I actually never did any marketing either. So believe it or not, LinkedIn, I used to get on LinkedIn and answer questions for an hour or two in the morning at 5:00 in the morning, and just really just try and redeem the time in a way that I felt was fruitful and productive and contributing to the world. But it's so interesting how when you do the right things, things just fall into place. That was one of the things that just blew me away is how many doors got opened and at the most perfect time. Because I had been trying to build, I think I had 2 million under management and I'm thinking, "How am I ever going to get to 10?"

So I looked up a way to manage money and I found a whitepaper and it was on EMAP, which was Edelman's managed account platform. And so, I read how they're managing money so I'm going to do this, I'm going to emulate that, right? Well, within a week or two, I got a call from someone I had lunch with back when I was doing the 401(k) stuff. And he was now working for Ric Edelman. And they were looking for advisors in our area. And he said, "Here's the catch, Michelle. You have to be willing to take an account $5,000." And I was like, "Are you kidding me? I'm taking any account $5." So I flew up and I met Ric Edelman and just in the nick of time because I was not going to meet the 10 million, I partnered, it wasn't even a partnership, it was like a tri-party investment management agreement where I was the advisor and they were managing the money. Because that was what I had realized was I love meeting the people and helping them envision and come up with the plan. But managing the money became the homework and I felt like it was a necessary evil. And at some point I was like, you know what? I can't do both. I have to pick one or the other.

Michael: So they were effectively a TAMP, a back office investment management platform for you.

Michelle: Yes. And it was wonderful and it was all that I needed because I could just go out, meet people, do financial planning and they were managing the money. And if you think about it, what was the market doing in 2008? Who could I point to? Well, listen to what he's saying because he's the one managing the money. So I didn't have people calling and yelling at me based on what's going on in their account. I could point them back to listen to the radio show on Sunday and hear what he's saying and what they're doing.

Michael: So working with Edelman here now solves the Schwab's minimums overnight because now you're actually coming in under Edelman Schwab arrangement and they've got a bajillion dollars so they're fine. And you just have to keep your agreement with them for which I guess at the end of the day, they didn't have a $10-million minimum. They weren't concerned about that.

Michelle: No. And Edelman, back then at the time, had a vision of having 500 independent advisors all over the nation so that they wouldn't have to open individual Edelman offices. But some bad apples got in and so they were also sending us referrals based off the radio show. So people would call in to the radio show and if they were in Orlando, they would get my information and I would get their information. I'd reach out to them. And it was a great system until we had a couple bad apples and it all came crashing down. And it didn't last for long. I want to say that was in 2009, maybe even later, that all the referrals just came to a halt. I don't even think it was a full year.

Michael: Oh, because they got a couple of bad advisors in who did not good things to clients...

Michelle: Right. They didn't put them in...

Michael: ...with the Edelman referrals.

Michelle: Exactly. They didn't put them in the Edelman managed account like they were supposed to. They sold them an annuity or whatever they did. They didn't put it...and I knew there was a couple of them because when I was out there and met some, they're trying to sell me. Oh, I can get you 12% on...I'm like, who are you and why are you in this group? We're supposed to be sold out for how he's managing the money, which I was.

Michelle's Financial Arrangement And When She Had To Stop Doing Pro Bono Work [36:23]

Michael: So what was the financial arrangement at the time?

Michelle: It was, I want to say, a 60/40 split where I got 60%, they got 40% of the fee. And I was doing so much pro bono at the time, Michael. I actually got a raise because obviously I can't give the investment management away when he's managing it. So it was hysterical that when I moved everybody, and I had made everybody aware that I had been doing things for free, my relatives and whatnot. Yeah, you're going to be paying a fee and they're like, "It's okay." So I got a raise. But that was another thing.

Michael: Wait, so I want to understand. You're working with all these folks basically for free. You affiliate with Edelman.

Michelle: Get a raise.

Michael: Edelman's like, "We're not going to do it for free because we need to...if we're managing the portfolio, we're putting our fee on the portfolio." So you had to go back to the folks that you were working with for free to explain that you couldn't do it for free anymore because your platform required a fee. And that ended up being a raise for you because now you're just actually billing on assets that you were otherwise doing pro bono.

Michelle: Right. Exactly.

Michael: Interesting, because I know just for a lot of people, the challenge when you do these affiliate arrangements, as you said, 60/40 split, there's a lot of focus on what they don't keep with the 40% that goes out the door. So I'm amused, I guess, fascinated that from your end, no, no, no. Now I started getting 60% of a bunch of things that used to be 0 because they basically got me to actually charge, so my revenue went up when I did the split.

Michelle: Exactly. Yeah, because I did way too much pro bono. And when I met with a family that was struggling with debt, I felt bad charging them a fee. So I had a lot of pro bono, which only led me to more pro bono because if that's who you're serving, guess who they're telling? Their friends who are also not in a position to pay for an advisor. So that was one of my early on mistakes was to value my services and charge a fee.

Michael: It's a good framing when you start, as nice as it is to help people in significant need, if you start helping people with situations of no assets, limited income, significant debt problems, when you serve them well and you get referrals, guess who you're probably getting referrals for.

Michelle: That replicate.

Michael: Yes, which perpetuated.

Michelle: Yes, definitely.

Michael: So what was it like needing then to go back and say, "No, I'm charging a fee." That must have been very challenging when you're getting to that point, because you were effectively having guilt over charging money to people who were already in a financially challenging situation.

Michelle: Most of them expected to be paying all along and they're like, "Oh, no, no, no. We knew that you couldn't continue business like that." Because obviously, if I kept going at that pace, I would have never stayed in business. And even Greg, who works with us now, I remember reaching out to him because he was such an amazing advisor at Schwab, that I wanted him to be part of what was going on with Edelman and just let's go help people. And he said, "Michelle, how are you going to pay me?" I was like, "I don't know. It's all going to work." And he was like, "Until you're successful, I’ll never be successful." And he was successful. He had a bunch of real estate and he was doing well where he was. He just wasn't in financial services anymore, which kind of broke my heart. But I wrote that down and it was almost like I heard from God himself in that I had to put my success as a priority before I'd be able to employee or help anyone. I took that to heart. I actually laminated it. It was one of the things that Ron Carson said way back in the day, "Laminate your goals and put them in the shower and look at them every day." And I still have that laminated card from 2009 and it has quote, Greg, "You will not be successful until...others will not be successful until I'm successful." I just pulled it out of my drawer.

Michael: Others will not be successful until I am successful.

Michelle: Yes.

Michael: So what was it like going back to...I'm still just fascinated, what was it like when you go back to pro bono clients, say, "I need to charge you now." And they say, "Oh yeah, I thought I was going to be paying all along."

Michelle: Right. But it was crazy because I was worried that they were going to go away. And I'm like, well, wait a second, they're not paying me anyway. So I did lose some, but not very many. I had one gentleman say, "Michelle, I spend more on boots than what you're going to charge me," because a lot of the accounts were really small. And it never became an issue. And one of the things that Ric did tell me and he couldn't impress on me enough was that if you make the fee the issue, it will be the issue. So I never, after that point, was like, oh, this is what we charge and I just move on. People don't expect anybody to work for them for free.

Michael: So as you're growing through this stage, where were clients coming from? Where'd the revenue start coming from?

Michelle: I wish I had an answer for that because we never marketed. We didn't. We did get on a local Christian radio station and I didn't know they had a directory, but I found out when somebody called me off of it. I started going to Kingdom Advisors in 2008 and became a certified Kingdom Advisor and they also had a directory. Someone found me from that. But it was just word of mouth and I was active on social media back then because it wasn't as inundative as it is now. But I did put a bunch of stuff out. So I always wanted people to know, and I'm one of those people that once I meet you, you go in my phone and I grow on you like a fungus. And I wasn't annoying but I wanted people to know that, oh, anything with a dollar sign, I can help you. Even if I didn't have the answer, I loved to figure things out. I'm a problem-solver and when there's a will there's a way. I will help you.

What Were Michelle's Social Media Practices? [42:54]

Michael: Tell us a little bit more about what you were doing in practice on social media at the time. I know world looks a little bit different today, as you said. It's gotten a little more crowded than it was. But what were you doing at the time that was working for you and getting traction for you at the time?

Michelle: I think it was just relationship building and really just putting out there, if I had read something and kind of went, "Wow, that's good," I'd put it out there. And actually, one of my friends from childhood said, "Do you ever put out original content?" Was kind of hurt by that. But it was because I was always trying to share something that I had just read. But the majority of people really liked the things that I was putting out because like it is, it's the battlefield of the mind. And if we can help people think differently about their money, about their possessions, about their life in general, I think that's something we all have in common, that we all think. And I wanted to help people think differently about their money and really be set free. And I was open about my dysfunctional relationship with the dollar. So I think really just relationship building, because I believe people do business with people they trust and even on social media, you can build trust with people based on what you share.

Michael: So your approach was I'm just going out there and reading interesting things and I'm sharing the interesting stuff that I'm reading. I'm not buying third-party content, but I'm not making my own either. I'm simply sharing what I'm reading. Am I understanding that?

Michelle: Yes. Absolutely. And sometimes I would paraphrase and say how this applies to me. But most of the time, it was something someone else said.

Michael: And so, how does this, help me understand this more, how was this relationship building and turning into clients for you?

Michelle: I think it's just you're not going away. And after, I want to say I heard three to five years, people start realizing, oh, they're going to stick with this industry because there's so much turnover in financial services, because it is hard to get moving. And it really seemed like after 2010, that's when people just came and, hey, I got an inheritance. Hey, I need help with this. And some of it, there was a lot of false positives. I have to share that for anyone that's listening. A false positive is where it looks like it's going to come to fruition, but it just wastes your time. Nothing ever comes of it. But it gets you continuing in the right direction.

And perfect example, a woman came to me. And this was right when I was starting my RIA. She was supposed to be coming into $5 million, blah, blah, blah. It never came to fruition but in my mind, it kept me moving in the right direction. So along that journey, there will be false positives but I truly believe that all things work out for good. It's like, it doesn't matter really what your faith is, but that's my belief system. And if I can flip something that went bad, like somebody didn't pay me for a financial plan, into a lesson and a process where we're never in that situation again, it's the cost of the tuition for the experience. Because it wasn't all smooth sailing, by any means.

What Was The Trajectory Of Michelle's Business After 3 Years [46:26]

Michael: So do you recall what was the trajectory of the business? Where were you after three years in terms of assets and revenue? How did it actually go in those early years?

Michelle: I do remember vividly, Michael, when my husband was taking a shower. And it wasn't even the three-year mark. I think it was less than two. And I remember vividly, I had made $7,000 the first year and I was on track to make $14,000, which would have been doubling. And that's horrible compared to making six figures in commercial real estate. And he's in the shower and you can tell he's thinking. He goes, "Babe, I don't know how much longer we can exist with you and your..." he considered it kind of a hobby. And he was like, "What's your plan B?" And I remember saying, "Having a plan B means I don't have faith in plan A and I've never been more sure of anything in my life" and I walked away. And in that moment, I realized, oh, my gosh, I don't have a plan B. I had goosebumps all over my body. I realized I just spoke back to my husband who looks like American Sniper and he's pretty big. And I've always been this subservient wife. But it was the truth. This is something I knew, with every cell of my being, I was supposed to be pursuing. And how dare he question it, right. But then I felt really bad. I was like, that was a great question. Let's talk about it. I don't have a plan B but one day you'll thank me, which he does now.

Michael: Financially, did you have to do the, we're living on his income while I build my business? That was the household dynamic?

Michelle: Yes. We lived on his income and I took a home equity line out to start. So we didn't really need it, but it was there and I think it might have been around the time that they cut our home equity off. I don't know if you remember that when market values of real estate plummeted. They're like, "Oh yeah, by the way, you have no more equity." And we're like, "What?" So I don't remember the exact time.

Michael: Yeah, I remember that in early 20-teens, there was a lot of, yeah, we have a home equity line of credit, just in case of emergency, in case we need it. And people just start getting letters, your home line of equity has been terminated.

Michelle: Is cancelled.

Michael: You won't have access to that anymore. And that was a thing for a year.

Michelle: Talk about fear mongering there. No. But he had a great point and it really did get me thinking because here I've just been, like the ant, doing diligently what I felt was right. And we sat down at the end of 2010 and he said, "I want to do my own thing." And he was like, "I want to talk to my financial advisor, not my wife." So we came up with a plan for him to leave the industry that he was in and he was going to do that. In three months, at the end of March, he was going to leave. But along the way, he decided he wanted a boat. So he was like, "Okay, I'm going to get the boat but then I'm going to save back up and I'll leave at my birthday," which would be more mid-year, July 16th. And between the boat purchase and July, he got into real estate and wanted to buy a rental property. And it was so crazy. I just kept telling him, "Hey, it's your life. You're the one that wants to stay stuck in a job that you're not happy with. So when you're ready, you let me know." Would you believe the week before his birthday, he calls and says, "Babe, I'm getting let go." And I was like, "Oh, yeah, we never even provided them a two-week's notice." And he was like, "Babe, I don't think you understand. They're laying me off." And I said, "Oh, I know." I didn't know, but I knew and I wasn't going to feed into his fear. I was like, "You were supposed to put in notice two weeks ago." But he came up with a rationale that he still needed the job the buy the rental property because he needed income. Yada, yada, yada.

And it was the best thing that ever happened to him and it changed his trajectory, being laid off, and forced out of the nest. And he started his own construction company. And it was a wonderful experience, but I had told him, "You gave me time to get what I have going on rolling. You take as long as you need. My little business, you've never asked after that one question about plan B. I'm like, my little business can cover our basic needs. Not hunting trips. not extravagant vacations, but the basic needs of food, shelter, clothing, what we need as a family.

Michael: So not withstanding $7,000 year one and $14,000 year two, by the time you're into 2010, you're through three years heading into the fourth year and the numbers were getting better at that point.

Michelle: Yes. They were. And because of the way the structure of our industry, I could see the growth, because we were having double-digit growth. And we also never pulled a dime out of the company so it had just been building in the company and his income had been providing for us. And so, he took off running and got licensed and started his own thing. His business was successful right off the bat. And he was in construction. He had a very good name. But his business was very expensive. I'm in a service industry where there's pretty much hardly any cost. His business as a site contractor needed the yellow Cat equipment and gave me heart palpitations real quick, because I'm looking at a spreadsheet and I had told him, "We got five years of you figuring things out." But what my spreadsheet didn't include was the cost of running his business. And at one point, we had 28 employees, payroll half a million dollars a year. It was crazy but it was an adventure and I wouldn't change a thing.

Michael: But the household shift was now we're living off the income from the advisory business...

Michelle: Right.

Michael: ...so that he could do this. So just relative to where revenue was in the first year or two, you really started getting a pop in years three and four?

Michelle: Yes. And you asked in the pre-questions what was the best times and what was the worst times, and I would say that season of having the two businesses was the best of times and the worst of times, because I felt torn between the two. And at one point, I remember getting a call from one of my favorite clients and the mine is a battlefield, my mind went, "What does she need?" And I was convicted with a quickness, what does she need? This is what you're called to do and you're over here distracted, helping your husband. You need to remember what you're supposed to be doing. And so, I, with a quickness, told my husband, "I love you. I want to help you but I can't give you what you need." I fired myself and he replaced me with somebody else. And I had to go back and just completely immerse myself with the families that I serve, because that was where joy was found. That other business, it was a whole other stressful...it was good. The problem was, the business grew faster than he and I did as business owners, because like you have said, there's just so many different things you got to learn and we struggled. He ended up closing it actually. Although it was still being financially successful, the fruit of his business was toxic and stressful and he was on the back porch drinking Crown Apple and he was miserable. And I'm like, okay, this was fun in the beginning, but this is no longer fun and you need to make a decision. And he decided he didn't want to do it anymore, which was really crazy because it was making millions of dollars. And you think that that's the end goal, but really money is a hollow pursuit if there's no joy.

Michael: So how does this translate back to your business? He has this fast ramp-up and then he wants to be out because now it's getting not fun, not pleasant again.

Michelle: Well, I think he also saw that what I was doing came natural. It was an energy, your energy's not drained by it. It's actually rejuvenated. And it's making money and it was a wonderful model. And I was dealing with a whole different demographic of people than he was dealing with in the construction area, because unfortunately, some people would be doing drugs and just not come back to work. It was just a totally different demographic, whereas I'm dealing with people that want to better their lives or wanting to accumulate wealth. And he saw the difference, so we actually, as soon as we closed his business in 2016, Ron Carson reached out and said, "How are things going? Happy 10-year anniversary." And we flew out to see what Carson Group was all about.

Michael: So they hit you on a cold outbound call?

Michelle: Yes. Ron reached out on LinkedIn. Yeah. John was instantly, this is it. This is what you need to do. And I was instantly terrified because they were very, market-focused. They're like, "We send a weekly market letter out." And here, remember, I'm more like a life coach/return on life. It's more we don't talk about the investments because Ric's managing those. We're more, let's do financial planning. Let's focus on the things that we can control, not the market, that's definitely not one of them. And I was terrified that if we partnered with Carson, it would be all about the investments. So we didn’t partner.

Michael: Were you still using Edelman at this point for the investment side?

Michelle: Yes. Yes, for 10 years.

Michael: Okay. So when their program fell apart, the referrals part stopped. But them being your investment back office continued.

Michelle: Right. Yes. They're still managing the money, but what I didn't realize, once I went and saw what Carson Group was offering, I didn't realize everything I was lacking. I kind of knew it when you look at your map of fintech, but to see all the things that they would be taking off of my plate and then when I came back...

Michael: That Edelman wasn't providing because at the end of the day, they ultimately built more on the internal employee hiring models. They probably just weren't putting more resources into expanding support for their affiliated advisors at that point.

Michelle: Edelman had actually started opening offices nationwide.

Michael: Their own, like Edelman offices.

Michelle: Yes. The TAMP had been, they never invested another dime into it and it just kind of grew and existed. But that was the only thing that they were offering was the investment portion. And when I saw what Carson offered, it was wonderful but I was also afraid because I was afraid, I love what I'm doing and I couldn't see big picture that I would have people to help me and that I would grow the team here. And so, I took almost a full two years to pull the trigger and that was another beautiful thing.

What Was Terrifying About Michelle's Carson Offer? [58:02]

Michael: Help me understand further. What was so terrifying about the Carson offer?

Michelle: I think having just experienced a business grow so fast that it imploded, that that's what I thought would happen if we partnered with Carson and had all of these resources and business blew up. I was just so afraid of this business that I had so slowly, methodically, carefully grown, because I never wanted to overpromise and underdeliver. If I started sending birthday cards back in 2007, I made a system and a process to never forget a birthday. So I was so afraid that if instantly the business 10x'd, it was all going to be on me and I couldn't see that I would have help. But God sent help because if you're going to partner, you got to have help.

Michael: So interesting. Ironically, to me, my words, the fear of a platform like Carson's was that you were afraid it would work.

Michelle: Fear of success. Okay?

Michael: And it would have to work and grow and you just lived fast growth, which wasn't good.

Michelle: And I was afraid that they were more market-focused than I ever have been. But they've really, when I revisited it at the end of 2017, it was very much the whole looking at the life and the comprehensive planning. And the market stuff was all optional. You don't have to send your clients all of this. This is what we're doing for you. And I was like, oh.

Michael: Is that because the offer actually changed or just they changed how they were talking about it?

Michelle: I think the offer had changed some since 2016 because they really now are pouring into planning. Whereas they were very investment-focused when we originally looked at it.

Michael: Okay. So talk to me about the intervening two years. You've checked this out. You decide not to do it because it might work and it's all growthy and you just came off the bad, too fast growth cycle. So didn't want to get on that rollercoaster. So what happened in the intervening two years that it eventually you went back with them?

Michelle: So after seeing how it can be done, I thought I could do it myself because remember, I'm a control freak. And I also subscribe to Ron's coaching and all the resources that they have. So I thought, "I'll just apply all the things that they're doing to my little firm." And I did some year-end planning at the end of 2017 and I wrote down everything that I needed based on two days of just deep thought and answering a bunch of questions. And I'd hired this coach to help me come to this list. And I was invited to see Ron when he was in town for a TD conference. And I went out of sheer curiosity. I didn't think that was the answer, but I went out of curiosity because he had left LPL and I thought that was interesting. And I was like, I just want to go see what that's all about.

And I went to the luncheon and sure enough, if everything that thy were talking about didn't check every box that I had written down as what I need to be successful. And I remember I texted my husband, I'm like, "Babe, oh, my gosh. We got to look at Carson again." And he replied, "Babe, you need to make a decision." And that's when I realized, oh, my gosh, I am the problem. But I'm also the solution. And that day, Ron asked me, he was like, "Where are you at?" And I knew to partner with them at that time, it was 40 something million. I wasn't there yet and I knew that if they asked, I didn't even qualify. But he was like, "Where are you at?" And I said, "I'm at 21 million and I'm going to double." And I remember looking at him and he goes, "Come double with us." And my eyes filled like a 5-year-old child with tears and I was like, oh, my gosh, somebody actually believes, besides my mom and my husband and all the families that we serve, that we can do this. And I had to just get out of my own way. And the rest is history. God sends me Hannah. God sends me Emily. Greg comes back. Remember Greg? The one I wanted...that was amazing at Schwab? He's now on the team. It's just like, oh, my gosh, Michelle, had you gotten out of your own way sooner, what could have happened? But again, it's the journey that creates you.

Michael: So come back to me on what was the offer, the arrangement, the deal, the package, at the time that you ultimately said, "Okay, this is the right thing. This will give me the doubling path that I want?"

Michelle: So it checked all the boxes in that I didn't want to deal with compliance and doing any kind of marketing and all of the things that didn't add value to the relationship at the end of the day. I just wanted to do the planning. I just wanted to go out there and meet new families to serve. I wanted to impact these people, but all this minutia needed to still be getting done. So it checked all of those boxes and what Ron knew when I spoke to him was that they were moving that target of 40 million to probably 75 to 100. And it would be a moving finish line. And so, I'm so grateful that he knew that. I didn't know that. And I truly don't think I would have doubled and ever returned. I would have probably just kept going around the same mountain.

Michael: So what was the difference between what Carson was providing and what you we're getting from Edelman? I'm just trying to visualize what was new or different or getting added?

Michelle: Edelman just did the investment management. So when we partnered with Carson, then all of a sudden, we have the whole advanced planning division that...so if somebody came to me and said, "Hey, my net worth is $50 million. Do you think you could help me?" Michelle, pre-Carson, would have been like, "Yeah, I've never done anything like that." But with their advanced planning team, I felt invincible where I could help anyone. That was definitely a huge add because I was very planning-centric.

The investment committee was amazing. Actually, having more investments to choose from was a little overwhelming in the beginning, because Edelman had one way of managing money and it was very clean, very simple. There was about 100 different portfolios but it was easy. Whereas partnering with Carson, they had 50 different strategies, so I had to kind of figure out where they all were appropriate for different clients. So that added a little more complexity but we've moved into this time where you want to be able to customize things for clients, not have a cookie cutter, you can get that from Acorn or Robin Hood or even Schwab Smart Portfolios or Intelligent Portfolios. So it was great. It was one of those things I needed, but didn't know I needed for the future. But yeah, their compliance, their marketing team, they make beautiful marketing. They handled the website. They took, I want to say, it was nine things off of my to-do list. It was wonderful. Their CRM was great.

Michael: So as you went down this path, was this another TAMP-style relationship where they're subadvising the assets and providing all these additional services? Or are you actually an IAR under their corporate RIA and you had to move the whole entity structure?

Michelle: I became an IAR under their RIA. Yeah. So then again, it was just surrendering and I actually sold my RIA, empty with no assets, because there was a wait list in 2020.

Michael: So how did that work? You sold to another advisor that was getting started who wanted to be able to have an operating entity right away?

Michelle: Yes. I felt bad because I'd been working with this awesome compliance guy for a long time and I'm like, I don't need your services anymore and this is the direction I'm going. And I was asking him help me kind of close it and he was like, "Well, I have people trying to open them but there's a nine-month wait list." And he was like, "Let me see if I can work something out and you could sell your RIA to somebody that's now just taking the leap from the broker-dealer world."

Michael: Out of curiosity, what did you sell it for? Do you know?

Michelle: I want to say $7,500, something like that.

Michael: Okay.

Michelle: But hey, I was just going to close it. Awesome.

Michael: Because they can buy the entity. It's already registered.

Michelle: It looks like it's been around since '07.

Michael: Right. It's been around since '07. They just have to do the, they file for a name change for the business and update who the IARs are, but they can put themselves on that with just a bunch of filings of an existing entity. You don't have to literally do the registration process.

Michelle: Exactly.

Michael: So was the financial arrangement still similar to the 60/40 you lived in Edelman world or was it different when you did the Carson RIA structure?

Michelle: It was pretty much a wash. And again, just like when I partnered with Edelman, I ended up getting referrals and making more money. It was the same with Carson. And I never really even question it because when the window opened and the door was open that I could partner, I knew I was supposed to do it. Almost kind of like when I met my husband, I knew he was the one. I knew without any kind of shadow of a doubt that I was supposed to partner. I did the numbers after the fact. I'd already signed all the paperwork and I looked and I was like, "Huh." Because I had the option of increasing fees for some clients that were lower and I said, "No, I don't want any of our clients to have to pay more because it's going to help me." We grandfathered people at different rates that were lower than their 1.8. That was a decision I made that they didn't recommend I do that. But I was like, I don't want anybody else, just because I'm now going to have all this back office support, to have to pay more.

Michael: So in this world of just so many people talk about the proverbial 1%, do you feel like there are fee challenges or competitive challenges being at 1.8 or not an issue?

Michelle: I don't because between the comprehensive nature of our planning, with helping them with tax stuff and helping them plan and see things differently, I really feel like we definitely earn that. And I would never ask someone for their business if I thought we wouldn't warrant the fee that we charge.

Michael: So we're a premium service, so we can charge an above average fee. We give above average quality.

Michelle: Right. And now if I meet somebody and they have a really simple situation, I'll put them on the retail side of Schwab and just as a friend, tell them you're going to want to open that account and that's what you're going to set up, and it's going to be automated. And they don't need me. But when things get crazy and complicated and you don't know what you're doing, I'm your girl.

Michael: What's so fascinating by that, the roughly 60/40 style split, if your fee schedule starts at 1.8, your net still comes out pretty close to 1 and then I'm assuming stepping down with breakpoints. The platform has additional costs. It's embedded as part of the fee. Clients pay the full thing for this full scope they get and that hasn't been a problem for you.

Michelle: Right. And if someone is on a Fidelity or a...Vanguard's hard to compete with, but we do have strategies that are very low cost that we can reduce our fee if cost is an issue. But I'll use the example if you're in a Fidelity fund and the expense ratio is 95 basis points, we have a whole investment committee that is managing, it's basically kind of like their own mutual fund but we all them strategies. And the expense ratios of those investments are less than 10 basis points each. So it's kind of like the expense ratio of those mutual funds is our investment committee, which is part of the 1.8.

Michael: Okay. So you get the conversation back to a what's your all-in cost with your underlying, because your underlying's much lower cost with the centralized scale that you've got.

Michelle: Right.

Where Is Michelle's Business Today? [01:11:22]

Michael: So then, where is the business today? Fast forward us now to the present and where it stands.

Michelle: I think we are right at 146 households. We have right about 50 million depending on the day of the week. There are four of us in the office. My husband is doing his own thing with commercial real estate. Well, he's actually in land development. It's not commercial. I don't know why I said that. And he's helping high level as the integrator. I'm the visionary. But we have Hannah, Emily's an advisor, Hannah is our director of operations, Gregory is my investment guru, because actually I don't enjoy the investments anymore. I think I mentioned that back when I delegated it over to Edelman, that became the homework. So God sent me Greg in the beginning of 2022 when I did not even know that the markets would be crazy and that Carson was going to add 300 strategies onto the platform. And I would have probably been drowning in that situation. But when Greg said he was ready, it was a no-brainer, even Emily and Hannah probably were like, "Are you sure? You're going to mess up our trio of the ladies here?" But he's been wonderful looking at everything that becomes available, looking at all the accounts from an investment-only perspective and working directly with me to make sure that that's not neglected. I hate to use that word, but I'm all about the plan and the tax management and all of the big picture, and the investments are very important.

Michael: So just what leads to this hiring hockey stick of growth? I'm just struck. It sounds like it was solely you for 10 years and then just the past 4 or 5 years, it's you and Emily and Hannah and Greg and John helping out some. Feels like that's a really significant just shift in the overall balance of the business. So what's changing this way?

Michelle: Well, I wish I knew that I enjoyed being part of a team. I loved being on the Schwab team. And in order to partner with Carson, they said you have to have another employee. And I was like, okay, Mom, hey, you want a job? And my mom...

Michael: You had to have another employee?

Michelle: Yes, because they said it's a lot. Even just getting through transition was a lot. And they were right. So I immediately said, "Hey, Mom, come on board. You can help me grow this." And she did but literally other than having an email address in her name, and I talked about it and that was about the extent of her contribution. And she's been in all of our Christmas pictures since day one because she is my biggest fan.

Michael: Fantastic.

Michelle: But then, I asked actually it was the president of the Christian Chamber here in Central Florida if he knew anyone that had child-like faith, because that's where I live, and would want to help me as an executive assistant. And the position would be virtual. And he sent it out to the entire chamber, so I was getting all kinds of resumes. I was overwhelmed by that. But a friend of mine called and she goes, "I've got your girl" and she sent me Hannah. And I talked to Hannah. I literally called Hannah and interviewed her on the spot. She had no idea why I was calling her. So we joke that she got a job she never applied for. But it was love at first listen. She was telling me about her goals and I knew she was in a wheelchair. And for her to say, "I want to get a car" and just have this bold personality, I was like, I love this woman. I need to know her. And we teamed up and then she's the one that brought Emily on board. She was at the CFP course telling me about this awesome girl. And I'm like, "I don't know that I have enough clients right now to support just me." But when the time was right in 2020 and the market's tanking, I'm texting with her and worried that she's going to get discouraged and want to get out of the business. And my husband said, "It's time. You need to bring her on board." And again, it was one of those things, we hired before the growth. We have hired every time before growth. But we didn't know it so it's really trusting our intuition, and my husband's always been such an amazing integrator and telling me and guiding me in what to do.

Michael: So how do you get comfortable with hiring for the growth? Because it costs money that you don't have yet.

Michelle: I know. And it's scary and I don't know how it always works out. God just sends me the perfect people. We kind of throw something out and they're like, "Okay." And I'm like, "Really? Wow, this is going to work." Yeah. And I just have crazy faith. That's what the Christian Chamber calls it, just absolutely crazy faith, that if it seems right, feels right and there's all the things lining up, kind of like the checklist of when to partner with Carson, just go for it. The road of life will allow U-turns. I don't think if any one of my hires didn't work out or they got a better job offer, I would be excited for them if they found a better opportunity. So you just kind of live in the moment you're in and make the best decisions based on the information that you have. And pray a lot.

What Surprised Michelle The Most About Building Her Own Advisory Business? [01:17:00]

Michael: As you look back on this journey, what's surprised you the most about building your own advisory business?

Michelle: Just God's grace and the faith that has been built in me in building this business. Because I have seen so many amazing things happen for clients' financial lives, for my own financial life, just by dreaming big. And my husband's 401(k) was rolling over in the midst of the plummeting 2008 end of year and I'm freaking out because it's not there yet and I know enough to be dangerous. We're going to have to pay taxes on that. But the check gets reissued and it goes to the right custodian and it hits the day the market turns around. Those kind of just amazing things I've seen, not just in our financial life but in clients' lives that make me go, we really had such little control. Let's just do the best that we can in the moment that we're in and at the end of the day, when you lay your head down, you know you gave it all. Because we're not guaranteed tomorrow.

What Were The Low Points For Michelle In Her Journey? [01:18:09]

Michael: So talk to us more about the low points. What were the low points in the journey?

Michelle: In the beginning of 2021, our little team had doubled. Emily had come on board and I had never managed people. So Hannah and I are practically the same person. God's got an amazing sense of humor because I prayed for a mini me and she's half my size and we overlap on the DiSC profile. But then we bring in Emily and she's the polar opposite of us and she's got all kinds of great ideas. And her advisor that she had worked for six months earlier passed away. And at that point, it was, I didn't know how to handle it because part of me immediately thought she was the succession plan. So I'm like, "Oh, bye. She's leaving." And then, they're trying to tell me how we should help the family, because she was really close with that advisor's family. And I realized I am about to implode. I don't know what to do. It was like mutiny on the Bounty because they're trying to help and they're telling me how to run the company.

And so, my husband stepped in and he was like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa." It was the moment that I thought, "I don't want to do this. I want to go back to being alone," and I'm so glad they had such grace for me because they knew I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just trying to lead people and I've never done it in my life. And it ended up working out like a win-win-win for the family whose advisor passed away, we ended up bringing on some of the clients and compensating the family. It was the best outcome you could possibly imagine. But in the moment, you didn't know that. You were like, okay, Emily's going to leave and it was horrible. But thankfully, my husband, being the awesome integrator, came in and did a sit-down with the three of us and was like, "Okay. We've been doing this for a long time. This is how it's going to unfold and this is what we need you guys to do." But that was my hardest moment in this business, I would say, because I had the opportunity to go right back to doing it the comfortable, easy way, which is I always say the hard and right thing are often the same thing.

Michael: So what kept you from just saying forget it. I'm just going to go back to solo world. Life was easier.

Michelle: Really my husband coming in and getting everybody on the same page. And it was all just miscommunication. And I don't do well under pressure. It was shocking that I told my husband I don't have a plan B and that was shocking to me because I don't have quick comebacks. So when they're telling me all these things I should do, I was feeling overwhelmed and I just wanted to shut down. But John, he was the glue that kept us all together. We looked at our DiSC...because we've done DiSC profiles since the very beginning. If you come work with us, you're getting a DiSC profile. We need to know you. And the girls really having patience for me growing through this was huge and they had such a heart for, hey, we're all in this together, we all want what's best. And I was like, are you sure?

What Does Michelle Wish She Knew 10–15 Years Ago When She Was Getting Started? [01:21:20]

Michael: So what else do you know now you wish you could go back and tell you 10, 15 years ago as you were getting started?

Michelle: I wish I knew to get out of my own way. I wish I knew that I would really enjoy being part of a team, that my unwillingness to work with others was actually a trust issue, that I didn't trust other people. So when somebody needed to refinance their house, I didn't have a trusted mortgage person. I would literally go figure out, okay, if I'm going to refinance my house, who would I talk to? And I'd get proposals. So I was doing so much work that I didn't need to if I just had cultivated relationships with people that I trust. That, I wish I had started way back in the beginning. I did learn that with John's business. All of his business was relationship business. That's why it was so successful and we both learned a lot from that. His company was called Ground-Breaking Construction and I even say it was ground-breaking my thinking because I thought business just takes time. And that's not true. That was a limiting belief that kept me stuck and really just kind of fostered the complacency of, oh, it just takes time. And I have a problem with being too passive. And I wish I had also learned how to be more persuasive in getting people to do the right thing for themselves, because I've had people come to me that maybe talk to me 10 years ago, but I touched them two or three times and I moved on. And they come to me and they've got something I would have never recommended for them. And it's like, oh. So if I could have just been a better advisor and persuader and almost not growing weary and trying to get them to do what's in their best interest, the follow-through. I know Edelman was in a position where he said just touch them twice and move on because he had such a huge funnel coming to him. His employees didn't have time to continue and touch somebody 10 times. I wish I had realized that, that we were in different parks. I needed to continue to follow up and follow up, because I've done that now and the client always comes on board when I'm diligent about following up and obviously not stalking them, because I sometimes joke, I'm stalking. I'm following up.

Michael: How often do you follow up? Because that's a painpoint for a lot of us, what's the right level of persistence and not awkward or stalkery.

Michelle: I ask. So what I ask, when I do reach out and they're like, "Yeah, I thought I was going to retire at the end of this month? I'm not ready yet," I ask, "So when would you like me to follow up? Is two months good? Do you want me to reach out in two months?" And when you do that consistently over two years, they know that you are reputable, you're going to do what you say you're going to do and your word is your bond. And I wish I had done that from the beginning. I just kind of, if I got a voicemail a couple times, I just kind of let it go. And I really wish just based on the things I've seen and there's sometimes there's financial assassins out there, some of them have...I hate to say it, but they're more aggressive than I was. And I regret that.

Michael: And so, thus the I thought business takes time, but it doesn't have to. It's okay to be more proactive in going after these folks, because at the end of the day, somebody else probably is as well and this someone else might not do right by them.

Michelle: Exactly.

Michael: So if you don't keep going after them, you're leaving them to the proverbial wolves.

Michelle: Exactly. Yeah.

Michael: So are there any other just things you look back of how you would have grown it differently or done the path differently? I'm thinking particularly the how different the last 5 years were from the first 10 for you.

Michelle: I don't think I'd change a thing, honestly. It's the journey that has built me. I think I've built this business when all along, it's built me. And I could go back and tell myself to be more persistent and follow up and just the art of rebelling against our flesh, our flesh wants to be complacent. And I'm doing that. I get up every morning at 4:45 and I go work out, not because I'm a morning person, but because I am constantly rebelling what my flesh wants to do. And in doing so, I better serving my people and leading by example.

What Advice Does Michelle Have For Younger Advisors? [01:26:19]

Michael: So what advice would you give younger, newer advisors, just looking to become a planner today and start a firm?

Michelle: If they have a passion for serving people in the financial service realm, do it. It is the most rewarding career. However, if they have no desire to help people succeed in the financial realm and they're just wanting to get into his career because they think that you make a bunch of money, that's a hollow pursuit. You'll make a bunch of money but you won't enjoy what you're doing, and that is what life is all about is giving of yourself and enjoying. Like I mentioned, my business always recharged my batteries, not drained it. But when you go into a career that you just do for the paycheck, kind of like my husband's business, it makes a bunch of money but it's a hollow pursuit and there is no joy in that journey.

So I love this industry. I feel like our world is so super connected, but yet at the same time, there's a lack of deep, meaningful connection.. And so, you get to know people on the deepest level, their dreams, their hopes, their vision for the future and you see it come to fruition. That's the...I sat and cried on the Suwannee River at one of my client's camps, something they envisioned. And I'm just like, this is so cool and she's crying with me. I'm like, it happened. So very rewarding. I would encourage them too.

Michael: I like how you framed that, just my business always recharged my batteries, not drained it. If you're not feeling the recharge in what you're doing every day, that's the thing. That's the question. That's the issue.

Michelle: And don't get me wrong. There are lots of stumbling blocks along the way. I joke kind of that I quit my job every quarter. But we grow from that because I'm like, God, I'm done. I quit. And then he's like, get a good night's sleep, eat a good meal, take a shower and I'll see you tomorrow. And I'm like, oh, okay.

How Does Michelle Define Success For Herself? [01:28:27]

Michael: So as we wrap up, this is a podcast about success. And one of the themes that comes up is even just the word, success, means different things to different people. So you're on this wonderful path of success in the business and now seeing this incredible growth rate. So the business seems to be in a wonderfully successful place for you. How do you define success for yourself at this point?

Michelle: For me, success is constantly learning, growing and evolving as the person that God created me to be, and giving generously of those gifts and talents regularly and making an impact on the world around me. Positive impact is what I feel like it's all about.

Michael: Very cool. Very cool. Well, thank you so much, Michelle, for joining us on the "Financial Advisor Success" Podcast.

Michelle: Thank you for having me.

Michael: Absolutely.