#FA Success Ep 381: Helping Clients Go Beyond The Plan To Actually Implement As A Fractional Financial Behavior Officer, With Ashley Quamme

Resources Featured In This Episode:

• Ashley Quamme
• Beyond The Plan
• 5 Steps For Implementing The Human-Side Of Advice – Download (PDF)
• Advisor's Guide On Making Referral For Therapy – Download (PDF)
• Dr. Meghaan Lurtz's Articles
• The Re-Discovery Meeting: A Communication Strategy For Supporting And Retaining Newly Widowed Clients
• Fathom
• DataPoints
• Building Wealth Assessment
• Klontz Money Script Inventory
• The Millionaire Next Door: The Surprising Secrets of America's Rich by Thomas J. Stanley
• Kristy Archuleta
• Financial Therapy Graduate Certificate (Kansas State)

Looking for sample client service calendars, marketing plans, and more? Check out our FAS resource page!

Are you a successful financial advisor, or do you know of one that would be a great fit for the Financial Advisor Success podcast? Fill out this form to be considered!

Full Transcript:

Michael: Welcome, Ashley Quamme, to the "Financial Advisor Success" podcast.

Ashley: Thanks, Michael. It's good to be here.

Michael: I really appreciate you joining us today, and I'm looking forward to a discussion around what to me has been an interesting trend and shift in our world over, I guess, about the past 5 to 10 years where we've been going from this world where my value is I can bring alpha, I can lift your investment returns and get you better financial outcomes, that's where a lot of us were 10–20-plus years ago, into this realm that's both more about kind of the financial planning end of things, "I'm going to add holistic advice to you beyond just the portfolio," and what's been this sort of growing realm of talking about the behavioral side of what we do. And it seems to come from a lot of different directions. There's sort of a pure client communication aspect of having better conversations with clients. There are sort of the investment lens to this. I'm going to be a behavioral manager for my clients so they don't sell at the bottom and make really bad investment decisions because of all their behavioral biases. I find there's even just a pure financial planning aspect of money is so intertwined in our lives and our identities and our decisions and what we do that it actually gets kind of hard sometimes to talk about money stuff without kind of having some parts of psychology crop up.

A few firms I've seen in recent years have gone so far as to hire a financial counselor, a financial therapist to be on staff. Most firms aren't really big enough to do that as a full-time role. And so I know you kind of come to our advisor world with roots in marriage and family therapy and kind of the financial therapist end of the world, now looking at a world of what does it mean to be a behavioral officer for an advisory firm or a fractional financial behavior officer for a firm, since a lot of us can't afford to hire someone full time into this role. And so I'm really just kind of curious and fascinated to learn, what exactly does it mean to be a fractional financial behavior officer? And how does that show up in the interface with an advisory firm?

Ashley: Yeah, it's a question that I'll be honest, I'm also trying to figure out as well. I'm humble, I guess, enough to say that I don't have all the answers here as far as what this exactly looks like, but I'm figuring it out and learning from so many other great visionaries, trailblazers in this space. So it's an exciting time for me shifting from purely a mental health side then into kind of a financial psychology, mental health, and now even more so into the financial services side.

Michael: So, tell us a little bit more about how it's shaping up so far. So you are doing this live in practice with a number of advisory firms. What does the scope of an engagement look like when you start working with an advisory firm? What do you do, Ashley? What do you do?

Ashley: What do I do? Actually, that is kind of the question I grappled with. I was on a call with an advisor, and he kind of asked, not maybe in the way that you and I were just kind of joking, bantering here, but he kind of was, "What do you do? What do you do?" I remember I just said, "I help firms go beyond the plan. And I help them figure out and learn how their clients think, feel, and do money." And then I was like, "Oh, man, that was really good. Thank goodness I've got a note-taker, an AI note-taker here, because I don't think I would remember that."

Michael: Okay, random tidbit, what's your AI note-taker of choice?

Ashley: It's with Zoom. It's Fathom. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael: Okay, Fathom-integrated Zoom. All right. So I like this framing that you set up here. We help clients go beyond the plan. That does just resonate to me of, "Okay, we did your financial plan. What comes next? What else do we do?" And it's, "Well, that's sort of the point. What comes next?" I think, for most of us, what comes beyond the plan is some version of, "Well, now you implement it." You made the plan, and now you implement it. Except not all clients actually implement every recommendation we put in front of them. In fact, most of us have varying levels of struggle to get clients to actually do all the things that we put in front of them, which connects to me back to this, well, because clients have a lot of varying levels of funky relationships with money, right? They think you'll do in different ways, depending on a whole bunch of stuff about their life and background and upbringing and the journey that's brought them to our advisory office that day.

Ashley: Yeah, absolutely, all of that. And there's a parallel there to how things can tend to work in therapy too. You've got these treatment goals, these objectives, this plan, if you will. What are we working on? What do we want to accomplish? Okay, great, we've identified it. Now, we're stuck, or you're not implementing these action items. Why are we getting stuck? Why is it difficult to make progress towards greater well-being from, if you want to say, a holistic place, it's fine. And so, coming into and working with firms, I view my role, I view the work that I do is really helping to figure that out. Why are clients getting stuck? Where are they getting stuck? What are the aspects or things that they can be doing better? What can the advisor do better? What can the firm do better? All of that kind of tied into one system. And so going beyond the plan really is looking at, how can we move our clients from just a place of, "Here's this plan," as you said, "now go take action" to really a life well lived?

What Is A Fractional Financial Behavior Officer? [9:39]

Michael: So help me get a little bit more granular in just how this actually shows up in the work that you do with an advisory firm, because, for what you're describing, I can envision everything from training advisors in techniques to do this or literally just sitting with our clients that are really, really stuck and be, "I have no idea what to do. Actually, just figure it out. Let me know how it turns out." So, what do you do when you get engaged into an advisory firm?

Ashley: There's an onboarding kind of process here. I want to learn about the firm. How are they operating? What are their maybe initial kind of starting goals as far as where they're needing support or direction on? So, as you kind of mentioned, yeah, if we're kind of naming out here kind of the aspects of work that I do, it's providing training, whether it's webinars, seminars, they can be advisor training or client-facing training. So I do offer CFP continuing eds for those trainings that are identified.

There's looking at the firm onboarding process, what does your prospect meeting process look like? What does your discovery meeting look like? All of the meetings kind of in that initial onboarding, what do those look like, and how can we fine-tune or shift those to create the outcomes that you're wanting? How can we also help give clients an idea around what it'll be like to work with you and that we're not just numbers-focused? I say we because I really view myself as a member here. But how can we create a different client experience from the get-go?

Part of that may include, and one of the things I've really enjoyed is doing, what I call money mindset meetings, so implementing behavioral assessments. I use DataPoints for those assessments, and so implementing those assessments, conducting, facilitating a post-interview, and really gaining clarity on who the client is underneath the surface. I also do client meeting facilitation, so whether it's me facilitating the meeting without the advisor or co-facilitating the meeting with the advisor. Now, not every meeting but particular identified meeting.

And then we also do office hours too, which I've learned this the hard way, and this is so different, Michael, than how things work in mental health, that the word supervision does not go over well, does not land well on financial advisors. But in the mental health space, one of the really kind of core kind of aspects of being a mental health practitioner is really getting ongoing supervision, so whether that's through your peers or through a mentor. And so office hours is really kind of that place where we come together and talk about cases collaboratively.

Michael: So supervision, in this context, is not making sure you're compliant. Supervision, in this context, is getting feedback on your technique and what you're doing.

Ashley: Correct. Yeah. Yeah, I had to change the wording on that early on because I got some feedback that was, "Whoa, whoa, whoa."

Michael: Yeah, just a little bit. Although, I find, even beyond that, it is an interesting phenomenon that I know a lot of the world of counseling and therapy has a very heavy component of, as you're framing, supervision. I kind of think about it like putting yourself in a position where you are getting structured feedback because someone actually sees some of your work and tells you what you're doing, gives you feedback or role-plays your work, and then gives you feedback about how you did. It's always struck me because just the few times I have ever seen those techniques applied or tried to apply it in the advisor context, boy, most of us really hate role-playing. If you just say, "Okay, everyone, now we're going to role-play this," there's at least an advisor conference, just a collective groan in the room, "Oh, I can't believe we're going to do this" – notwithstanding all the very good research out there that says that's actually a remarkably effective training technique.

Ashley: Yeah, it is. It's so fun. It's so interesting coming at a learning curve, as I'll probably share a lot. That's a learning curve. So not supervision, we're talking about feedback. And the great thing too that I feel inclined to also say is that there's an aspect here of case consultation, getting feedback, that sometimes we have our own blind spots and sometimes our own stuff. The self really is how we refer to it on the mental health side, the self of the therapist. There's a self aspect here to working with clients, but we can have a blind spot too and not realize. And so doing some self-consultation, getting feedback from peers or mentors can really shed some light to, if you are projecting, maybe potentially your own stuff onto client situations.

Using Office Hours To Allow Advisors To Raise Tricky Client Situations [15:13]

Michael: So the idea is I come into an office hours and say, "Hey, I've been working with this client. I'm having a lot of difficulty because I'm trying to get them to implement, And he's really dug in and doesn't seem to want to do any of the things we recommended even though he hired us as an advisor. I can't figure out what's going on. Ashley, can you help me figure this out?" Am I thinking about this right? That's the kind of stuff I would be bringing to an office hours.

Ashley: Absolutely. Yep, you are. Yeah, insert whatever problem there. Yeah, that is what we dive in and talk about. Office hour seems to be a very, with the firms that I've been working with, a very, I don't want to say popular, but it is one that has been very well-received and continues to get very positive feedback around, "Wow, this was really great. I didn't think about it that way," or just a lot of positive feedback and learning for myself too. So it's mutual as well.

Michael: So, can you give us just an example? What's an advisor thing we deal with that someone brought to office hours and you had, "Well, here's a different way." We look at this from the financial therapy end that is helpful then for an advisor to take back.

Ashley: Yeah, I'll speak to a more recent one, and it was around financial enabling. And so, for those that maybe are not familiar with financial enabling, it is enabling maybe an adult child or another family member close to you, but enabling them in such a way of providing financial resources for them that are really to their detriment and also your detriment as well. It may not be financial. It could be emotionally, mentally, psychologically.

Michael: So our infamous client whose child is 33 years old and still lives in the house and still is completely financially dependent on them. And everyone says, "You need to get your son out." And they're, "Yep." And then they continue to pay for his bills.

Ashley: Correct. Yep, very, very common one. So that's a more recent example, and so an advisor, we talked it through on just some strategies, and one of the things that was interesting that came out of this one, in particular, at least, was the client, the older adult client of the advisor, was saying all these things about how the adult child wanted this money from their parent. And so there was a moment there in this conversation with the advisor where I asked, I said, "How does the mom know that this child wants that? Is that what the child is saying?" And he kind of paused and was, "Oh, I don't know." And I said, "Have you had a conversation with the adult child to see if it is, in fact, what she wants?" And he's, "No." I said, "Well, let's create maybe kind of an action plan," obviously, with permission from the client, of course. But let's talk about how maybe we can dispel any myths here around… that may be at play or inaccurate narratives.

I have found in my own work that sometimes clients will create these narratives, "Oh, this person wants this. I need to give this person, my kid, money because if I don't, they'll XYZ, ABC. They're expecting it." Well, maybe they're not. Maybe that's an inaccurate narrative that you've created. And so if we can find ways to chip away...

Michael: What does it turn out to be instead? What's the kind of alternative narratives are we not considering that we should have?

Ashley: Yeah, Usually, in those cases, we try to get information from the horse's mouth. Let's find out if that's actually true. Some clients aren't willing to go there for various reasons, maybe fear, uncertainty, lots of different maybe reasons at play here. But for some, once they do find out, "Oh, okay they're not expecting me. In fact, they actually don't want me to give them money to this extent because they feel guilty. They feel then obligated to go on these vacations with me. I don't need that money." Sometimes psychologically, at least, speaking, when the older adult parent finds out that information, it can put them in that place of, "Well, what is my purpose? What purpose do I have then if it's not to provide or give to the extent I am financially to my adult kids?" So trying to chip away at that and finding out where the truth is, where the reality is, creates an opportunity then from a financial planning standpoint, coaching standpoint, therapy standpoint, to really get underneath the surface there and work to creating different patterns.

Michael: So I can see now the context of office hours. So it's just advisors bringing these kinds of, I think most of us would probably refer to these sticky situations with clients and having someone to talk through the scenario with, that brings a different skill set and a different perspective than 'just' talking to advisor peers where I think a lot of us would not necessarily have the tools, the approach that you articulated. I feel like the generic advisor response is, "Well, you just got to cut them off. Come on."

Ashley: Yeah, we call that "stop it."

Michael: "I can show you the financial projection. You are going to go broke if you keep doing this. So, can I give you another chart that shows you how it goes to zero if you don't stop?"

Ashley: We call that usually "stop it" therapy in our field, some form of "stop doing this" or "just do this."

Michael: It works, right?

Ashley: Oh, yeah, definitely, definitely. Saying that was sarcasm. I know the listeners can't see my face. Saying that was sarcasm.

Participating In Client Meetings To Facilitate Difficult Conversations [21:25]

Michael: So I understand the office hours a little bit more now. So then take me back to you had also talked about client meeting facilitation. So, is that a version of this same kind of conversation, but it's, "Yeah, Ashley, can you just have this conversation with them? I'm not sure I know how or I just don't really want to do this conversation. Is that what that means when you say client meeting facilitation, or does that show up a little bit differently?

Ashley: No, I think that you are correct. For those more, you said sticky and that's a great word for those super sticky maybe situations where the advisor is unsure or if there's maybe a desire on the client end. One of the firms that I've been with, Experience Your Wealth, they have had clients starting to even request for meetings to talk about some of these sticky situations with me, which is wonderful that clients are seeking out that type of resource. So it is the sticky situations, but it can also be, hey, just another set of ears. This couple is a challenge, and they have really divergent perspectives around spending. And it's really causing a lot of issues. And so just having another set of ears that maybe listens for things in a different way than an advisor would can bring about perspective. It can bring about maybe areas, additional areas of focus as well.

Michael: I'm just curious, how would you envision advisors trying to introduce that conversation with clients, say, "Here's Ashley and who she is and why we're going to have another person in our next meeting together," in a hopefully not awkward manner?

Ashley: In a hopefully not awkward manner. I think the awkwardness is advisor dependent. But usually, how I would coach an advisor on that is, at this point, again, I said earlier, I view myself as a member of the team, as a team member. And so I think that viewing me as a team member really allows you to use that kind of language in approaching clients. So, for example, "Hey, Michael, we have this new team member who's come on board. Her name is Ashley Quamme, and she is our financial behavior officer. And her area of expertise is really in the mindset piece, psychological piece," however you would frame it there. "And we've had her starting to come into our client meetings to observe or just ask other questions and really get to know our clients."

So it doesn't have to be this big, scary, awkward thing. Now, granted I'm coming at it from a different place, I recognize my own bias here. I think if you can think about it in a way, it doesn't have to be that scary. In fact, to the best of my knowledge here, because I don't want to speak in absolutes, but to the best of my knowledge, I don't think that there has been a client that has said, "Oh, God, that sounds like a terrible idea," or, "Yeah, no, I definitely don't want that." The response has actually been one of excitement, one of interest, one of intrigue.

And think about this from a client perspective, and this has worked out anytime that maybe I've done any kind of co-therapy or talked about having another service provider kind of with me, is that you get 2 heads here, 2 professional heads that are sitting here, thinking about you, dedicating a whole hour to just you and helping you. That's usually really attractive to clients to know, from an ego standpoint, "Wow, all these people, these service providers with different maybe professions and expertise, they're sitting here with me, focused just on me." So most clients generally have been very receptive and excited and welcoming of that.

Michael: Well, I feel like it's worth acknowledging as well. For a lot of clients at sort of this level of sticky situations, when you say, "I think it might be helpful to bring my colleague in to help with this conversation," it's probably not news to them that they've got some challenges.

So I do feel like there's this piece worth recognizing that I feel like from the advisor end this kind of maybe my own projection, I feel awkward or nervous about introducing this discussion to clients. But to be fair from the client end, it's not news they've got difficulties. They may be in an advisor relationship with me in part because they've already been trying to figure out how to solve some of the challenges or the way it's showing up for them. So if I've got other experts on the team to bring into the room to help, that's probably going to be very positive.

Ashley: Yeah, it is. And one of the observations that myself and some of the other advisors have been working with is a sense of relief, kind of to what you're speaking about, some relief around, "Oh, man, here is an expert in this area that maybe knows and could potentially help us with," there is a little bit of relief there on the client end.

Using "Money Mindset Meetings" To Help Clients Better Understand Their Financial Behaviors [27:28]

Michael: So then you also mentioned, I think you called them "money mindset meetings" that are also client-facing, I think. So, what are money mindset meetings, and how is this different from some of the other things that we've been talking about?

Ashley: The way in which I run them or have been running them is I implement several assessments. So I use DataPoints. There are behavioral assessments, and there are several in their system that I use. They take them prior to meeting together. And then we do a 45- to 60-minute kind of post-assessment interview where I take the results of those assessments and I review them with the clients. I ask for any kind of clarifications and how maybe the results are landing on the client from time to time. There might be some inaccuracies there or the client views something different than how the result turned out, I should say, is a better way of saying that. But I'll take all of that.

I'll ask some history and I'll take kind of the sum of all of that. I'll give the client feedback based on what I'm seeing, "Here are a few areas of focus. If you or you guys choose to focus on, these could really move the needle." So I'll give them some feedback there, but then I also give feedback to the advisor or the team that's working with the client, and I'll say, "Here are the results from these assessments. Here are results from the interview." This is my perspective with regards to maybe certain areas that could be of challenge for them. Here are their strengths, certainly, and here are maybe some things from a maybe personality standpoint to be mindful and watchful of. So all of that is kind of what I call the money mindset interview.

Michael: So help me understand these assessments further. What is the assessment? What are the assessments that you actually use?

Ashley: Yeah. So I use the Klontz Money Script Inventory, and that is assessing those money beliefs. That is a very, more popular one that's out there. And so that's going to look at the 4 different areas for different money scripts, categories that a client or belief systems that a client may fall into. So I like to use that.

Michael: But for those that aren't familiar, what are the money scripts, the 4 money scripts?

Ashley: Sure, yeah. We have money avoidance, which sounds a little bit kind of like the name. There is money status, and money focus, and then money vigilance. Those are the 4 categories there. And so, usually, there's...

Michael: If I'm money avoidance, I avoid it. If I'm money status, fairly self-explanatory, money is my measure. What's the difference between money status and money focus?

Ashley: Yeah, that's a good question. So I explained money status as really that external view of how maybe wealth might be displayed. You may see that in lifestyle creep. So clients who start making more money, making more income, but their spending also increases, they're susceptible maybe to marketing. The "Keeping Up with the Joneses," right, kind of mentality. I've got to have the latest, greatest. Money focus is really more of an internal. Both are internal, I should say, but I like to think of money focus as maybe more of an internal kind of view. So money is the source of happiness. If I have more money, then things will be better, then I will be happier. Workaholism can really fall kind of into this place. So needing to work more in order to make more, but that goalpost maybe is always moving. There's never really a sense of contentment or enoughness. I don't know if enoughness is a word, but I just made it one. So that's really kind of the difference there between money focus and money status.

Michael: And then the last was money vigilance.

Ashley: Money vigilance, yes. And so kind of like it sounds, being vigilant around money, where it's allocated, how much is being spent. In theory, this sounds like a really great thing, and I will say that, for the most part, yes, it can be.

Michael: I was going to say, as a financial planner, this sounds like the good one.

Ashley: Yeah, it is. Yeah, it's great. But there's a downside to being too vigilant, and advisors may see this when clients go from the accumulation phase to the withdrawal phase, and they don't spend anything. Or they have that...

Michael: Or they're literally being constantly vigilant, and I get it. They retire, and now they have spare time to look at the markets. And I get a phone call every other day about what's going on because they're being very vigilant about what's going on with their portfolio. "Chill out. Go enjoy your retirement."

Ashley: Yeah. To that point, they don't enjoy the fruits of their labor. They don't take that trip with their spouse or their family or even invest in their own maybe health from a financial place. So, I say, in theory, it sounds really great, but there is a downside there too.

Michael: So, am I wrong in interpreting? I feel like most of these have a negative tone and connotation to them. Are all these meant to kind of represent different kinds of dysfunctions around money? Could I have none of the four because I'm not struggling with any of these issues, or is the idea everybody is one of the four, you just figure out which one you are?

Ashley: Yeah, I've not seen anyone with a score of zero for all four.

Michael: Okay. A human's gotta human at some point.

Ashley: Yeah, yeah. And these are a lot more deep-rooted beliefs. For example, people who are wealthy are bad. Now, I know, that question, there's some criticism around, well, it kind of boxes you into an either-or, and I get that. But there are certain beliefs that can come out of questions, what it is that you do believe around money or how money is managed by you or by others. And so I think that if anyone were to take it, again, I don't like to speak in absolutes, but I would find it very hard to believe that anyone would not at least show some kind of maybe slight kind of preference, their score being at least higher at least in one of the categories. So usually, there's a dominant. There's at least one or two dominant ones that come out.

Michael: I could certainly envision how this becomes helpful going into a financial planning relationship, into an advice relationship. Yeah, it would be helpful to know going in if you've got a huge focus on money status. That's definitely helpful to know going into the planning relationship, or even more, "Okay, so he's a money status person, and she's really money vigilance. Okay, I've got a sense as to how this marital dynamic is probably going and where some of the tension points are, just literally knowing that these are their money scripts, and they have two different money scripts."

Ashley: Yeah, and I'll use myself as an example. So when I've taken this, money focus and money avoidance are my two highest scores. Now, research has shown that therapists tend to score higher in money avoidance, shocker, whereas financial planners, advisors, they score very high in money vigilance. Yeah, shocker, again, right? My husband, he's a financial planner. And so, when I took this, now granted this was probably several years ago, my money focus and money avoidance were high. However, things have played out, at least in my marriage, quite differently. And so while I may have a high degree of money focus, we don't have credit card debt. There's a behavioral component here despite maybe what my beliefs or propensity might be. There's a way, and this is kind of the beauty of really a healthy marriage when couples are aligned on their vision and their goals. My money focus script, it doesn't dominate the relationship or our financial health.

Michael: Okay. So the idea is new client is coming on board. A step in my new client onboarding meeting might be Ashley is going to go through, give client this assessment to understand what their money script is, talk to them about it a little bit, and then come back to me, come back to the firm and say, "So just so you know," whatever, he's a money status person, she's high on money vigilance, we talked about a little here some other things that cropped up. And so now, as the advisor, I've got more perspective on what this is going to be like as I get going with this clientele.

Ashley: Correct. Yeah, that's it. And the other assessment too is the Building Wealth Assessment, and that comes from a lot of the research from "The Millionaire Next Door," which I would imagine most maybe listeners are familiar with that work, maybe.

The 6 Factors In The Building Wealth Assessment [37:34]

Michael: I think a lot of us are familiar with Millionaire Next Door, right, what was it, prodigious accumulators of wealth. What's the Building Wealth Assessment, though? What is that?

Ashley: Yeah. So that assessment is really looking at these 6 different areas or wealth factors, is what they call it. So, for example, there's frugality, confidence, control. And control meaning not as your spouse control. It's looking at internal/external locus of control. There's planning and monitoring, focus, and then social indifference. And so these 6 really different wealth factors that they're looking at contribute to the potential for the client to be able to build wealth. And so clients will take this assessment as well. And based on some of the results, I'll provide the client feedback, but also the advisor feedback as well. So if a client is really low in frugality and also very low with the social indifference, they're probably spending more or spending beyond their means. And so if that's an issue in their financial plan, it can be helpful for advisors to know that upfront.

Michael: So you said, so the first is frugality. So I kind of get that. Either you are very frugally-oriented or you are not. This tells me a lot from the advisory end about what it's going to be like. I feel like, for a lot of us, I sort of suss that out because either A, I get to see something about your cash flow and spending and get some sense of this, or B, I feel like there's sort of an implication of, if you were a saver and an accumulator and that's how you became my client, you probably are okay on the frugality end. But client couples sometimes have differences. So I get frugality. So you said the second one is confidence.

Ashley: Confidence, correct.

Michael: To me, am I self-confident in general, or is this money confidence? I'm not sure what confidence means.

Ashley: Yeah. Confidence really in making kind of small and larger financial decisions, as well as the confidence in their being able to manage kind of financial affairs. So, does the client feel confident in maybe their knowledge base? Maybe this ties into a little bit of financial literacy here. But how confident are they in their money-related choices and ability to manage the financial details of their life?

Michael: The idea being, if my client has money confidence, they're probably going to take action and be decisive. And if they're low in money confidence, they're probably going to show up as procrastinators that don't want to take action because they're not confident in their actions.

Ashley: Absolutely.

Michael: Is that what I would expect to show up based on the scores?

Ashley: It is, yeah. Now, going back to kind of the scripts, they may be those maybe more money avoiders if they have a lower degree of confidence. Not all, but there's maybe some likelihood there. The risk for, it might sound like kind of with money vigilance, that you would want somebody that's high in confidence, but again, too much of a good thing cannot be great. For clients who maybe are high in confidence, they could be overconfident, and so they think like…

Michael: I've never had clients like that. Really, that's a thing? Must be everybody else's clients.

Ashley: They could be overconfident, those DIYers maybe. But overconfidence bias kind of comes to mind here, but overconfidence can be really difficult for anyone, but certainly for advisors, to work with as well.

Michael: So then control, I think, was the next one.

Ashley: Yeah, control was that third one. And this I jokingly say it's not asking you how controlling your partner is with money. This is looking at more internal forces versus external forces, so internal locus of control versus external locus of control. Do you feel like you internally drive your own financial success? Do you feel like your financial outcomes are a result of your own efforts, your own doing, or that they are a result of more external forces such as winning the lottery, inheriting money, a financial windfall, if you will?

Michael: Okay. So I get it. In this context, clients, in general, clients that think they drive their own financial success and outcomes, probably much more likely to take action and do things because they literally believe it's going to achieve favorable results. If you're more externally focused on this and you think the only way anybody gets riches is winning the lottery, then either A, I have to literally talk you out of buying lottery tickets, or B, you may not be so enthused about the savings plan I'm trying to give you to achieve your retirement goals, because you actually don't think it's going to work, because your view is wealth accumulation comes from external factors, not from diligently saving in the first place.

Ashley: Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Michael: So then I think you said the fourth was monitoring.

Ashley: Yeah, planning and monitoring. So being able to set goals, being able to plan out and monitor your income, your income and expenses, right, your basic kind of budgeting. Being able to save kind of those foundational aspects of it.

Michael: Because this isn't literally about, are you going to be...? Well, so I'm sort of struggling. Themes like control, confidence, I feel like speak to, basically, are you going to be a good client that implements my recommendations? Are you going to be a problem client that we got to deal with? But this reminds me, this isn't actually about an assessment of, "Are you going to be a good cooperative client or not?" This is an assessment of, "Are you someone who's likely to build and accumulate wealth in the first place?" So, yeah, if I'm frugal and I'm good at monitoring and planning, then I don't have bad spending behaviors, and I'm pretty good at planning out my own budget, a.k.a. people who tend to accumulate dollars and save.

Ashley: Exactly, yeah. Yeah. And I have found that, with regards to the planning and monitoring, that this score, actually, when I go back to retest clients, that clients who are working with a financial advisor, that this score actually can increase as they are working with an advisor. So from a value standpoint, this is something that planners, advisors, that they can really bring value to clients, helping them become more disciplined with regard to this.

Michael: So then the next one I think you said was focus.

Ashley: Focus.

Michael: Okay. So, what's focus in this context?

Ashley: Focus, kind of maybe what you might think of it is, do you succumb to distractions in your life or is busyness an excuse for not being able to get things done? And I want to be sensitive here to the fact that I know for maybe many families who are in a phase of life like presently I am who are raising kids, working families, yes, there is a different aspect. But is busyness really a distraction for accomplishing things?

Michael: Young children are not good for focus.

Ashley: Yeah, yeah, but...

Michael: I wish someone had told me this earlier.

Ashley: Michael, you are welcome to come and take mine if you need an excuse at any point in time. Being able to stay focused, being able to reach those goals, having the discipline to stick with it.

Michael: So, is that how I should kind of think about this? This is a discipline and follow-through sort of measure.

Ashley: Yeah, I think that's a good way to look at it. Do you succumb to shiny object syndrome? Do you have the discipline to follow through? I think that's a great way of looking at it.

Michael: And then the last was social indifference.

Ashley: Correct, yeah. This is the "Keeping Up with the Joneses," do you have a propensity to, I don't want to say falling for it because that sounds judgmental, but falling for advertisements, social media? You're scrolling through Instagram and you see this really great skincare product and you're, "Oh, I got to have that." Do you need the latest and greatest?

Michael: Okay. So if I'm high on social indifference, I am very indifferent to what others are doing. So this is the, "I don't care about the Joneses. They can live their life."

Ashley: Correct, yeah. High on this one is...

Michael: So high is good on this one. You want to be indifferent. In this context, it means you don't care about the Joneses and what they bought recently.

Ashley: Correct, yes. Yes, that would be accurate.

Michael: So it sounds like it's true actually for all of these, more frugality, more focus, more confidence. All of these are basically...higher scores will be good across these dimensions.

Ashley: Yes, that is true. Yeah.

Michael: So, on the one hand, I get it, clients go through this, and I've got some sense as to sort of their wealth-building tendency or style. I feel like there are some weird self-selections that, given that a lot of us work with people who have already accumulated some level of wealth, that's why you have assets to manage for our advisory firm to work with you on a holistic basis, I feel like there's some implied self-selection bias. If you made it to my office, you probably are good at a lot of these, unless you happen to inherit it from someone. Our clients are going to tend to score above average just because they got to the point that they could be our clients. But just I'm struck that I feel like if you are my client, you'd probably score pretty well on these in the first place, unless I'm specifically an advisor who works with younger clientele earlier in their careers who maybe really have not translated good incomes into wealth yet and we're trying to figure out whether they're going to be able to do that or whether they're going to be challenged to do that.

Ashley: Yeah, there probably is, to a degree. Some of these questions here are asking around thoughts and feelings and kind of the emotional aspect, and sometimes that may not translate quite to the behavioral side of things. And that can be good or not. And so I've certainly seen where clients from a financial, their net worth statement if you were to look at it, it all looks well and good and "healthy." It looks fine. However, when they go to maybe take these two particular assessments, there are scores that may not be quite as desirable.

And, look, here's the thing, that can be okay. Some of it's just creating some awareness for the client advisor. And the feedback, at least, from the client side is usually generally pretty positive of, "Oh, wow, this makes a lot of sense." And particularly when I have couples do this, there tends to be a lot greater understanding of each other. Hopefully, that's usually the goal, right? And it really helps to kind of build that financial intimacy, but certainly, overall, just intimacy. And it also shines some light into, "Hey, these are from an awareness place, just things to be mindful of."

Michael: Yeah. Well, I am struck, particularly in the context of couples, that you get a much better understanding where I would say where both of them are, where each of them are. then you might just otherwise get in working with couples where there tends to be someone who is the bigger driver of the relationship of the two, which now, as I'm relating back to the earlier discussions, because the other one might literally be a money avoider, which is why that spouse never comes to the meetings, because he or she is literally a money avoider, which means I don't really have any sense of what's going on in the other half of this couple, that maybe now I get more perspective on what might be going on in the couple's dynamics around money behind the scenes if I can at least get the money avoider to take the script and validate they're an avoider but then also find out what their building wealth factors are like.

Ashley: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I know this might...I don't really mean this to tangent up the conversation, but when you're looking at just the statistics kind of around widows and if you're working with, stereotypically, a male partner and their wife is not involved, we're talking heterosexual couples here, the wife isn't involved, and then the husband passes away. And if maybe they've been an avoider, but if there's not that understanding or relationship factor there, that client is more likely to go find another advisor. And so these assessments kind of... they're helpful for the clients but also for the advisor really in trying to create better relationships, maintain the relationships.

Michael: Well, I almost feel like... Well, A, as you noted earlier, we, as advisors, probably skew heavily towards the money vigilance end because advisor. Maybe I'm overprojecting a little, but I feel like clients that we work with probably have a tendency where at least one of them is money vigilance oriented, because it's the vigilance and the forward-looking thought that makes them want to hire a financial advisor to help. But at the same time, if both of them were high vigilance and very comfortable with this, they probably would be DIYs. So to me, there's almost sort of an implication of one is probably vigilant and one is probably not, and you're probably going to be working with the vigilant one and not working with the one who's not, which means, at best, your relationship with the other spouse might look very different than your relationship with the spouse that primarily engaged you in ways that you probably won't have much perspective on because they haven't engaged you, which is where tools like this become relevant.

Ashley: Yeah, absolutely.

Michael: Are couples typically different or typically the same? Do birds of a feather flock together on these measures, or is this more of an opposites attract thing?

Ashley: I'd say both. I see more opposites than...

Michael: I feel like the birds of a feather would have been a little easier to manage from a client perspective.

Ashley: Yeah, well, there probably are, and some of this might tie maybe more into the values piece, which is different than what these assessments here are looking at. But from a values aspect, we tend to be attracted to a mate, if you will, that shares a similar value set that we do. I see where couples oftentimes have a lot of similarities there, and that's really what keeps them in it. But these beliefs, these behaviors, it's not uncommon that I see someone who is vigilant with someone who is avoidant. That seems to be a very common pairing.

Michael: Right. Which would make sense, right? Delegation of responsibilities amongst the couple.

Ashley: Right.

Michael: Sure. Except highlights. Well, that in and of itself would probably be a pretty big explainer of why, when the primary person you were working with, the money-vigilant one, passes away and the wealth moves to the money avoider, that it might be hard to retain this relationship, not because we didn't do a good job of trying to include the other spouse, because they're literally a money avoider. This was going to be hard.

Ashley: Right. I do think that that is where...what my role really is and can be in a firm, is really helping to bridge that gap there. Obviously, if that is something that the firm, and to a degree, the client, wants, but being that one that can really help to bridge that gap to maybe opening up or softening, if you will, that money avoider and helping them engage and be more a part of that process. One of the aspects that I do help firms with is the engagement piece and more so from a communication standpoint, and that, talking about money avoiders, partners who are money avoidant, that's exactly where that feedback offering coaching that I provide can really be helpful for so that you are retaining that client. And it's not really about retaining. I know that our advisors kind of get wrapped up in retention. It's really not about retention, but it's really optimizing and helping the client create a life well lived. And that's both parties, not just the money-vigilant one.

Michael: So the other question I have around both building wealth and money scripts, can I change these? As an advisor, are these hardwired traits, you are what you are, and I just got to deal with the fact that one of you is an avoider and the other one of you is vigilant, and one of you is really social indifferent and the other one is not? Are these just the cards that I'm dealt as the advisor, or can I actually change these? Do people's scores change over time?

Ashley: I love that you asked that, and I guess the answer is yes. So, yes, these can be shifted and changed. Now, I think some realistic expectations here probably need to be made. The likelihood of, let's just say, a money avoider completely getting rid of all of their avoidance and moving to the dark side and becoming extremely money vigilant, probably not, maybe to that extreme of a degree. But yes, these scripts, these wealth factors, yes, they can be changed over time. And in fact, I have seen them change. It requires a lot of work and effort. And this is where advisors, they don't have the time to put in... From a behavioral standpoint, a coaching standpoint, they may not have the time to put this kind of level of work in that may, for some clients, be needed. Again, I point back to, that is some of my role for firms, is helping some of those clients. But yes, these scripts, these wealth factors, these aspects, they can be changed.

Michael: And I guess, just to be clear, these are assessments that come from DataPoints. You use them as part of your overall work, but advisors can also just literally go to DataPoints and do these themselves if they want to, if they're interested.

Ashley: Correct. Yes, they can sign up for their own subscription through DataPoints and administer these client assessments for themselves. I hope it's maybe okay to share that here. Probably, by the time this goes out, I will be partnering actually with DataPoints to offer some of these feedback coaching sessions for advisors on these assessments that DataPoints offers. So they can go in and subscribe and get a subscription. There will be several other subscription levels there that include coaching or I call them money mindset, but they'll be called the trove coaching around the results of these money mindset assessments.

Creating A Better Client Onboarding Process [58:50]

Michael: So now, take us through some of the other areas that you had talked about. So I'm understanding money mindset meetings now. I think you said that you do other things of just helping advisors with their onboarding process. So, is there other stuff you do with onboarding beyond this, or is this the focus of how you help advisors with their onboarding process?

Ashley: No, beyond just the money mindset meetings for onboarding, we also look at what is your onboarding process and what are your goals for it. For the firms that are really bringing me on, they have this desire to really implement aspects of financial psychology or create what is kind of being called more of a human-first approach. And so, looking at the onboarding process from prospect meeting all the way to plan delivery, or even it's not part of onboarding, but I know Dr. Meghaan Lurtz actually talks about rediscovery, the rediscovery meeting process, looking at those aspects of the offering and how can we adjust, shift, tweak, add to make them more aligned with the firm's values or overall goal? How can we make them better for the clients?

Michael: Okay. So just help me understand further the difference between what you do and what you're talking about here versus just what advisors do in general. We have a goal with the onboarding process to onboard our clients. We kind of get to know them and understand their situation, and we're trying to craft and deliver a financial plan. What things are you doing or talking about that's different or beyond that?

Ashley: So I'm helping really them look at more of the human part of it. So, what information do you need to know about the human that's going to help you to be able to, at least in the onboarding, create a solid plan for them? So that might include a values exercise, asking about their values or their vision. If it's a couple that you're working with, at least, what is the joint vision there? What are the stress points for this individual or couple? How do they respond and react to market turns? What are some of those emotional behavioral responses during maybe other times of stress? So looking at the psychological factors there that speak to who this client is as a human and what it will be like or maybe like to work with them.

Ashley: And then there's also some just conversation around how successful are you with your prospect meetings. What is the close ratio on that? And what's your goal with it? If it's, "We want it to be better," then let's look at how we can improve that and make it better. There's the aspect too of really creating a client avatar and trying to understand who is your ideal client and what is their profile here. What is it that they're struggling with? How are they thinking about their financial health or financial well-being? And how can we really understand that ideal client in a deeper way so that maybe the firm's marketing team can create great marketing material or maybe the advisor can speak to that during the prospect meeting a little bit better in a way that resonates with that prospect?

Michael: So it sounds like this isn't necessarily about changing my sequence of meetings or cadence of meetings. I'm going to have my prospect meeting, my initial discovery meeting, or my plan presentation meeting. This is more about, what things are you doing in those meetings? What questions are you asking in those meetings? Do you need other tools or assessments in the meetings to show up a little bit differently than others? Is that a good way to think about it?

Ashley: Yeah, it is. Yeah. And thinking about too how you, as the advisor, how are you showing up. And this, again, might be pretty nitpicky, but what are what are the behavioral cues that you're giving off? How are you showing up physically? How's your body language? Being able to also read signs of prospects from an awareness place. So if you're talking too much, having the awareness to know you're talking too much and you should probably stop if you would like this client to sign on with you. Some coaching there too.

Coaching Advisors To Communicate With Clients More Effectively [1:04:26]

Michael: So per the supervision discussion earlier, are you coming into my prospect meeting to sit second chair and literally observe this in person? Am I supposed to record this? Are we hoping I do these meetings over Zoom and we can get a Zoom recording? How are you getting to the kind of feedback that you need to speak to something like body language and physical cues?

Ashley: I'm not sitting in on prospect meetings, and maybe there would be a place where that's appropriate, but no, some of this is getting feedback from the advisor. So I understand that there is some self-report bias that could be there, but usually, at least the ones that I'm working with, there's a desire there to be and do better and already a little bit of awareness around, "Hey, I probably don't do this well. I probably don't smile a lot or come across as very warm. Can you help me with that?" So there's usually some level of awareness already there. So no, I'm not sitting in on those.

Michael: That's why I'm engaging for how I've got some cognizance is probably isn't going quite like I would like. If I've been around on this earth long enough, I probably have some general indication in life of maybe I don't come across as the warmest or maybe I have some awkwardness, or whatever it is. It's probably not news to you.

Ashley: Correct, exactly. Yeah, exactly. There's some really cool new research out there that shows that smiling can really alter the perception of the viewer. And so just being able to have body language that speaks warmth and invites clients to want to open up and share and speak with you is crucial for not just landing a prospect but really for a long-term relationship. Some coaching and kind of education just on what that is, and if the advisor wants, even just some role-play there too.

Michael: Interesting. And so I'm envisioning this is more of a... there's a coaching and consulting aspect of this.

Ashley: Correct.

Michael: We're literally going through what are your meetings, and how do you show up in them?

Ashley: Right, yes, exactly. I would love to be able to get to a place where meetings may be recorded, and I offer feedback after viewing them. That's something that I've kind of delicately put out there into the world. And I know I'm coming from a field of mental health where recording our sessions is very commonplace.

Michael: Very not common in our world.

Ashley: Correct, right.

Michael: As a default, that's not a standard thing in the advisor world.

Ashley: Right. I recognize that. I totally recognize that. However, there is a tremendous amount of value in being able to go back and watch yourself through a different lens.

Michael: So I'm curious for a moment in that direction. So I feel like, from the advisor end, well, fundamentally, there's two primary challenges to recording my client meeting with the prospect or my approach meeting with the prospect. The first problem is me, and the second problem is the prospect. So, right, part of this is, "Okay, am I actually ready to have myself recorded and get what may or may not be the feedback that perhaps I need to hear, but I got to make sure I'm ready to hear it?" Sorts of moments where I can envision a lot of people going through their heads of just, "Oh, I don't know if I'm really ready to actually get all that critique at once."

And then there's the part of, well, is it going to be awkward to the prospect? Is there a way I need to explain and disclose it to them? They got to agree to be recorded. Is that a weird thing to ask in a meeting? But a part of me is chuckling as I say that because in the advisor realm where we're not used to this, I feel like it's a potentially awkward thing to say. Probably a little bit easier in the digital world because more of us record on Zoom, but it feels really strange in person, except therapists do this in person, frankly, talking about things that are typically more sensitive than even what we tend to talk about as financial advisors.

So, how do therapists open this conversation of would it be okay if we record this meeting? This therapy meeting where you're maybe talking about really sensitive things, how do you get your patients comfortable? Because I feel like if you can get your patients comfortable, we should really be able to get our clients and prospects comfortable.

Ashley: Yeah. From a simplistic kind of place, I use an approach that I call help me help you. "Help me to help you. Are you willing to allow me to record our session so that after we are done, I can go back and review it and be able to critique either just me or a peer, a mentor so that I can become a better clinician?" And some of the other aspects of this too that I talk about with clients, I supervise pre-licensed clinicians now currently. And so I help to kind of coach them on how to talk about this with clients. But there is an aspect here of when you're in the meeting, hopefully, usually, you're very present in that meeting.

And if you are even working with an individual, it can happen, but certainly, if you're working with a couple, there's a lot that is going on. It may not seem like it if there's silence, but there's a lot that is going on. You're balancing, in this instance, several relationships, the relationship with yourself, the relationship with partner A, with partner B, and the relationship between partner A and B. So there's a lot going on, and it's easy to miss things in that place. And so one of the things I talk about with clients is, "Hey, there's two of you. I can miss a lot of things. I can be focused on one thing and then be missing something that maybe you said because I was focused on this thing. And recording is really a way of helping me to be able to go back and kind of examine everything that was said while I'm not caught up in the moment there."

I find that this generally goes over very well. In fact, I can't recall it all, a single instance off the top of my head, I'm sure there has been, it's been 15 years, but I can't recall a single time where a client has gone, "You know what, no, I really don't want to help you do that. That sounds terrible. I'm not really willing to do that at all." Generally, the feedback is quite positive, "Wow, yeah, you care a whole lot about helping me that you're not only willing to sit in on this meeting, but you're willing to spend another hour examining this and learning from it. Heck, yeah, I'm on board for that."

The Importance Of Self-Awareness For Advisors [1:11:40]

Michael: I like that framing. I like that framing. So, what else? Just as you've now gone through a lot of different advisors in their prospect meetings, their discovery meetings, their plan meetings, what else do you find that we're missing that you end up spending time teaching and training and trying to adjust and improve upon? What else do you see are gaps?

Ashley: The biggest gap is really in self-work, and this is huge in the mental health space. Now, I'm not saying that clinicians and therapists are always good about doing it, but there is an aspect that, being a practitioner, we have to know ourselves well, and we have to also be actively working on ourselves. And I find that, in the advisory space, and I can see where some of this is starting to change a little bit, there's pockets here and there, but really doing your own work. And that doesn't mean you have to go to therapy. I'm not saying that every advisor has to go and start therapy here, but really being willing to examine where are your own blind spots, where are your biases, what's your relationship with money.

So if an advisor is particularly anxious about a certain aspect, financial aspect, their own personal life, they can unintentionally or inadvertently project that onto their client. I see this crop up a lot with relationships. So if a client reminds them of somebody maybe from their past or their mom or an ex, they may unknowingly really kind of start to relate or act in a way that is not authentic. It's true. They're kind of acting more from a past standpoint. There's a term we use called counter-transference in therapy, and it's really kind of putting the face of someone else on the client and responding that way to them. Being able to do your own kind of work and have some awareness around that ensures, I shouldn't say ensures, that may not be fair, but it helps to at least minimize some of that occurrence.

Michael: Okay. So the idea is just trying to become more aware that I might be doing, that that might be cropping up, or I guess getting the earlier comments, going through myself and finding out that, yes, I'm high money vigilance. Maybe saw that coming. But, okay. But you are high money vigilance and not everybody you work with is. So let's reflect for a moment how a not-money-vigilant client might not see some of the advice you're giving because they just don't have that script in the first place.

Ashley: Correct. I think maybe another or different non-therapisty way of maybe saying that is being able to dig in and understand, if you get triggered by certain clients from a personality standpoint. So I kind of offered a super-therapisty kind of way of explaining it, but on a basic level, maybe how another way is understanding what your triggers are, what type of people trigger you, how do you respond to them. If that one client really just gets under your skin, why do they get under your skin? Examining that so that you don't end up responding to them maybe in a way that is not providing great service to them.

Michael: That was a kind way to put it.

Ashley: Yes, there we go.

The Cost Of Working With A Fractional Financial Behavior Officer [1:15:34]

Michael: So then, what does this cost? How does it work for firms that you work with and engage around all of this, the money mindset meetings and facilitations and office hours and hack my onboarding process apart and help me rebuild it?

Ashley: Yeah. So I offer a monthly rate for a certain X number of hours per quarter. So it's, for example, 10 hours per quarter for $1,000 a month or $3,000 a quarter, if you want to think about it that way. And then it goes up in increments from there based on hours.

Michael: With base breakpoints if I buy more than 10 hours a month or 10 hours a quarter, this gets to be a better deal.

Ashley: Correct. The hourly rate then becomes less, exactly.

Michael: And so you said, so the base is 10 hours per quarter is $3,000 per quarter.

Ashley: Correct. And that's physical hours time. Certainly, there's email exchange that goes into that kind of as well. I try to be available to answer questions outside of physical hours.

Michael: And mechanically, people have to hire you at least a quarter at a time. That's just kind of scope of engagement.

Ashley: Yeah. I ask for a minimum of a 6-month initial engagement. So 6 months, and some of that is because if we're talking, let's just say 20 hours, it takes a little bit to get to know each other to a relationship. So minimum 6-month engagement, and then it goes up to 12-month engagement from there.

Michael: Okay. And then I'm assuming that kind of scopes out to the firm of, "Am I going to use those hours mostly for you to do mindset meetings with my clients, or are we going to use a big chunk of that because I just want you to overhaul my onboarding process and give me new questions to ask."

Ashley: Yeah. So if it's just a project of, like you said, just doing an onboarding overhaul, yeah, that might just be a one-time kind of six-month project. But at least the firms that I've currently been working with, it's more than just that. There's monthly office hours or, depending, there's client meetings, things like that. So, yeah.

What Surprised Ashley The Most Building Her Business [1:17:55]

Michael: Okay. So, what surprised you the most about going this path of trying to build a consulting business around behavioral finance or building this for fractional financial behavior officer model?

Ashley: Well, I think what surprised me the most was that anyone would sign up for it, truth be told.

Michael: A sign of the times, we're making progress. I don't think this would have gone as well 20 years ago.

Ashley: No, yeah, yeah, yeah. Very, very surprised. I guess that there is an appetite, although maybe I'm not giving myself entirely enough credit here, but it's the overwhelming just support has also been amazing. And granted, look, I know I probably live in my social network, social connection professional network is maybe a little bit more kind of in this bubble here, but just the overwhelming support that I've received from a lot of different people has been surprising but incredibly validating. So, yeah.

Michael: So, what were you doing previously before you moved in this direction and line of work?

Ashley: So I've been operating my own clinical practice for, I guess, May is a decade, so since 2014. I've been practicing as a clinician though for almost 15 years, but started my own private practice in 2014 just after my daughter, my second child, was born. So prior to this role, this offering, I've been a traditional couples therapist, seeing 20, 25 clients a week, operating, having a solo operation.

2019 is probably when I discovered really financial therapy, and that came about really because I had a lot of couples sitting on my couch that were talking about a lot of financial issues. The other aspect here too is that, with Clayton being a CFP, maybe I have a little bit more of an ear for some of those financial issues cropping up too. But started to really find myself kind of in this place of, "Man, I need better tools because I don't know how to help these couples, and sending them to an advisor is not just the answer for a lot of these." So 2019.

Michael: So, where do you go for tools?

Ashley: Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. So actually, 2019 is funny because I started kind of thinking a lot more thoughtfully around, "How do I learn? How do I grow?" And I remember, Clayton and I, we had a conversation, we called Kristy Archuleta, never met her, never talked to her, and was asking her about kind of financial therapy. And I think, at the time, she had just moved to UGA, and she was telling me all about Kansas State's financial therapy program and how great it was and the certificate, getting certified. And I was, "That sounds like my jam. That sounds like exactly what I need."

2020 came, COVID hit, and needless to say, March 17th was the last time that I saw clients in-person at my office. I say my office, my original office. And I stayed home with our kids for 10 months and drastically had to readjust. And you talk about pivot, pivoting. I had to learn technology, learn how to run a virtual practice, legal stuff, ethical, HIPAA, all of that.

Michael: Right, because you've got the whole medical services overlaid to "Let's start meeting on Zoom now."

Ashley: Absolutely. And technology wasn't caught up with that at the time. So 2020 came, and it absolutely derailed any hopes, aspirations for really putting my foot to the pedal and pursuing, at least educationally, financial therapy in the form of a graduate certificate. So that was a really...as I know it was for most, I'm not saying anything new here, I know so many people struggled with that, but that was a struggle and felt very lost for a while. I'm very lost for a while.

The Low Point For Ashley On Her Journey [1:22:29]

Michael: I was going to ask what the low point has been on this journey.

Ashley: Yeah, the 2020 timeframe probably was...I had this kind of tug and pull, maybe even before that of I don't just see myself as a therapist and I don't want to just do therapy for the rest of my life. There's a burnout factor. You hear the worst of humanity for 25 hours a week, 50 weeks a year, for, at least at that point, it had been 10 years, and it starts to take a toll on you, not to mention you're in the midst of a pandemic and the chaos and uncertainty from that. It was hard. I can say that there were positives in that the time I got with my kids was something I would never give up. That part was amazing. But professionally, as someone who is very ambitious and who has always known what I've wanted and wanted to do professionally speaking, it was lonely. It was a very, very low point for me from a mental health standpoint.

What Ashley Would Tell Herself When She Was Getting Started In Financial Therapy [1:23:37]

Michael: So now that you've gone so far down this road of financial therapy, financial behavior work with advisory firms, what do you know now you wish you could go back and tell you 5+ years ago, in 2019, when you were starting this shift?

Ashley: I used to look for these external factors or signs or kind of explain it like a compass. I felt like, at the time, I was really looking and trying to find my own compass. And I've come out of that place realizing that I am the compass. I am the one. We talk about, from the Building Wealth Assessment, kind of control and internal versus external locus of control, and realizing that I am really the one that determines my own success. And I have everything. There's a degree of privilege, certainly, I recognize that, but I really do have the ability, means, capability, resources, grit, resilience within me to create my own path. And so if I could go back, I probably would offer that perspective and a heck of a lot more grace and compassion to myself during that time. Everything is figureoutable. I have that quote next to my coffee pot in our kitchen that says, "Everything is figureoutable." And I wish I'd believed that during that time.

The Advice Ashley Would Give To Younger Advisors [1:25:08]

Michael: So, for advisors that want to go deeper into this realm themselves, what advice would you give, I guess, a younger, newer advisor trying to be more financially, behaviorally savvy in building their careers from here?

Ashley: Yeah. First, I would probably validate, give them just the affirmation of, "That's amazing. I think that's great." And biased or not, I think that is an honorable pursuit to try and do. So that's kind of my initial therapisty gut response. And then the second part of that is really diving into the education piece. It doesn't have to be formal through a university, but invest in learning, learning about yourself, not just the numbers and the tax part, all these other financial kind of concepts, but also learning how to do the emotional skills better. I don't like to say soft skills. I'm working really hard not to say soft skills because that is a phrase that really burns me. A colleague of mine, Andi Wrenn, she calls them diamond skills because they're incredibly hard to learn. But really investing in learning how to do those better while seeking out just further reading and education on the behavioral part.

Michael: So you kind of said, you don't have to go the formal education route. Where do you go if you do want to? A lot of folks who listen, we have a lot of people with a lot of letters after their name just who enjoy those types of learning paths. Where do you go if you actually really want to go deep and nerd out on this?

Ashley: Yeah. Kansas State, they've got the financial therapy graduate certificate. I am proud to say that the University of Georgia, I am located here in the state of Georgia, but the University of Georgia has recently also launched a financial therapy graduate certificate program as well. And so, educationally, I think that those are two great places. Texas Tech, I know from a research standpoint as well, those are some great kind of more formal education places that advisors can look to or research and look into.

What Success Means To Ashley [1:27:38]

Michael: So, as we wrap up, just this is a podcast about success, and one of the themes that comes up is just the word success means very different things to different people. And so you're on this wonderful journey of building this successful fractional financial behavior officer business, this new thing that we haven't had in the industry. And so you're building successfully on the business end. How do you define success for yourself at this point?

Ashley: Yeah. Those are metrics that are probably more emotionally, I guess, driven. So how I define success is really the quality of my own mental-emotional well-being, along with my physical health. That's serving as a role model to my kids and ensuring that I'm here for the long haul. There's a physical health component there, but success is that for me. It's having good relationships. It's making sure that my kids still want to hang out with me and don't completely hate me when they get to be adults, along with being a great wife as well. Those are my markers for success, certainly, the business part, but the relationships, for me, if I have those, then I really have everything.

Michael: I love it. I love it. Well, thank you so much, Ashley, for joining us on the "Financial Advisor Success" podcast.

Ashley: Thanks, Michael.

Michael: Thank you.