#FASuccess Ep 387: Merging A Fast-Growth Firm Into A Much Larger One To Get The Operations Monkeys Off Your Back, With Jenny Martella

Resources Featured In This Episode:

• Jenny Martella
• Modera Wealth Management
• Jenny's Favorite Scripts And Quotes – Download (PDF)
• New Planner Recruiting
• Synchronicity
• FP Transitions
• Buckingham Strategic Partners
• Microsoft OneNote
• Nick Murray’s Scripts
• Dimensional Fund Advisors

Looking for sample client service calendars, marketing plans, and more? Check out our FAS resource page!

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Full Transcript:

Michael: Welcome, Jenny Martella, to the "Financial Advisor Success" podcast.

Jenny: Well, thank you, Michael. I couldn't be more excited to be here.

Michael: I really appreciate your willingness to join us today, and to talk about what, to me, is kind of a fascinating dynamic that shows up for some advisory firms, which is what happens when we get the business going, and it starts growing really well. There's a part of me that says, this is very, call it, “first world problems.” Most advisors, when they get started, the struggle is, "It's not growing very well. I kind of wish there's more clients and revenue coming in." But sometimes we get started with businesses that grow well. And growth brings its own challenges, particularly when you get past just your individual capacity as an advisor. And suddenly, now, there's a team, and there's more people, and there's HR issues, and there's operations issues, and we need to make new technology decisions. And there's all this other stuff I got to do besides just getting and serving the clients that often I set out to do when I started an advisory firm.

And I know you have lived a version of this path, and made some pretty big changes ultimately because of it. And so I'm just excited to talk about kind of what this looks like. When the growth is going well, at least from the clients and revenue end, but then this business stuff besides the client starts getting really messy.

How Lunch Meetings Helped Jenny Find A Good Fit In The Industry [4:27]

Jenny: Thanks for that question. And I started out with Karen Keatley in a partnership. She had already started her firm known as Keatley Wealth Management. And we had a business plan together, and we had a vision together of what we wanted to do. And, honestly, it didn't require working too hard, to be honest. We really just wanted to have fun.

Michael: When was this? When was all this getting underway originally? What was the startup point for you?

Jenny: This started when I finished my own CFP, and took the exam in March of 2012. I'd already scouted around town for where I wanted to land, and what made the most sense. And I had a bunch of lunches with Karen. Finally, she likes to joke that I hired myself because I told her, "I really think we could do this better together. And I really think you're who I want to do this with." And maybe that's one of the things, one of the reasons that we did well was because we liked each other very much. She had traits that I didn't have, and vice versa. And we knew that about each other. And we gave each other complete freedom to move into those worlds with the things we were good at. And we were just so complementary. And she promised me that the phone would ring. I didn't have to act like a broker and start making calls and selling. Sure enough, that phone was ringing. And it just kept going.

Michael: Where did you come to the business from to be entering with with Karen, and doing these interviews and lunches, trying to find opportunities?

Jenny: Well, I had spent 8 years at home with my kids, and this is after a 15-year career in commercial banking. And so, after my youngest started school, I decided that I really needed something more in my life. And so I decided looking around at different banking jobs. Again, they just weren't floating my boat. I knew all those jobs, and I knew I didn't want to do them anymore. I've always had an interest in this kind of thing, investing and planning for people, and financial stuff. So I just thought, "Well, I'll just go sit for that CFP," thinking it was going to be easy, of course, and it was a lot more than I envisioned. But I'm just so glad, in hindsight, that I made that choice. And then, as I was going through the program, and I was doing night classes, I just started scouting around town to see how do people do this work. And I interviewed a lot of people for lunch, and just kept telling people, "I'd love to have lunch with you, and learn more about you."

Michael: How did you approach them? I mean, just literally to get them to come out at lunch was as easy as just saying, "I'd like to take you about to lunch and learn about your business."

Jenny: It seemed kind of strange at first, I guess, to people, but that's how I go about stuff anyway. I like to learn first. And so I started with somebody that my dad knew in the business, and he says, "Go interview this firm because I know this guy." And so they were so welcoming, and so helpful to me to help me understand the difference, even between fee-based and fee-only. I didn't even know that coming out of the program. And interestingly, as a mom, I'm going around town trying to say, "Well, I really need part-time work." And that became a barrier for me. I have a husband who was traveling and had a really big job, and I needed to be home for the kids in the afternoons or when they needed me. And I had some of the firms I really wanted to go with shutting the door and saying, "We don't do part time here." And then one of those firms said, "But you should go talk to Karen Keatley because she's doing things the way you want to do it, and she probably would take you part time." So that's kind of how I ended up having my first lunch with her.

Michael: So when you were doing this, were you interviewing as in you were finding firms that had job openings, and then going to the interviews, and interviewing for positions, and finding out they didn't want someone part time? Or is this like, no, you were just reaching out to advisors on their own and saying, "Can I do an informational interview with you about you? Because I'm just trying to learn the business." Which version of the interview are we talking about.

Jenny: Yeah, it was really the second of the two. I find that I do better when I just don't even look for a job opening. And I've done a lot of job hunting in the past. Believe me, as a banker, you get downsized all the time. So I got pretty good at it. Basically, what I do to move forward is I just start learning about firms and getting in front of people. And whether they have an opening wasn't my concern. And I would tell them that, "There might be an opening coming down the road, or you might know somebody that could help me."

Michael: What was the outreach just to create this? I mean, do you cold email them? Do you cold call them? Do you show up in their lobby and say, "I want to talk"?

Jenny: I know. It's awkward, isn't it? No, I would just cold call the firm and say, "I'm interested in what you do over there, and I want to learn more." And I would even sit down with partners at large companies and say, "Is it possible that this person who runs this firm would have lunch with me? I want to learn more about what you do, and how it gets done." So I would get a lunch. And the funny thing is, I have a story that I still tell about one of these partners who had, obviously, a lot of money. It was a big firm. And I had lunch with him. And I'm just a mom, and having my lunch. He ordered a big lunch, and I ordered my lunch. I'm not really eating much because I'm just so interested in this conversation. But at the end, he expected me to pay the bill. And I did. I thought, "How weird is that?"

Michael: So you find Karen. What was the size and state of the firm at the point that you met her?

Jenny: Yeah, that's interesting. The size of the firm, I mean, this is something Karen was essentially doing out of her house. It was something she wanted to do because her mom had become a widow at a rather young age, and she wanted a place. She didn't trust anybody. She knew the broker next door and said, "That's not for me, and it's not for my mom." And she had a background in finance, so she decided she would get her CFP in addition to her CFA, and just do some fun stuff out of her house. And she started on an hourly basis, and her mom was her first client. And by the time I met her, she had moved to doing AUM kind of recently. And she had...let's see, 11 clients, and she had $19 million under management with those clients. So she was still really small.

Michael: Okay. So you're small, but there's some real revenue there. $19 million, there's some dollars there. And good-sized clients, if it's $19 million with "only" 11 clients. So when you said you're going to work together, and were formulating this plan, help us understand what was the plan, what were the roles and responsibilities? Who was going to do what in this coming together, Jenny plus Karen?

Jenny: Right. Well, one of the things I knew was that I really wanted to do financial planning, and I wasn't that interested in the investment part. I was kind of worried about managing people's money, and that was the part I felt I wasn't good at. But Karen was. Being a CFA, and having a background in institutional investing, not only was she good at this, she was good at talking about it. She made me feel confident. So I knew that she would help our clients feel confident. But then the flip side was she said, "Well, I really don't care about the planning stuff as much as you do. And so why don't you create?" Because I started looking at what she was doing and poking holes at it, and she said, "Why don't you just do what you want to do?" So I said, "Wow. Really?" And she said, "Yeah. Pick out whatever software you like, and decide how you want to deliver it. All of it."

Using A Professionally Designed Website To Achieve Fast Client Growth [13:08]

Michael: Okay. And so that was kind of the division. She would do the investment stuff, you would do the planning stuff. So who was responsible for getting and managing the client relationships themselves?

Jenny: We decided we would both be responsible for that. And, of course, I was worried about it. I mean, coming off of being a banker, I was used to, honestly, cold calling and selling, and that's what bankers do. So I was prepared to pick up the phone, or do whatever I had to do to start getting ourselves out there. She said, "You don't need to do that. The phone will ring, I promise." And it did. It really did. And I think we've really got it going, though, when we built a website, a website that would really help us drive business. And since my husband was in digital marketing, he knew a thing or two about how important this was going to be for us. But we did get a professional website company to help us with this. And I will say it was amazing, Michael. We really grew most of our business after the first year or two, strictly mostly of our website, about 60% of it was coming from the website.

Michael: And who did you work with to make the website that was making all these things happen? Was it an industry website person, or some local website designer?

Jenny: It was a local person. And I think what we did was we just kept perusing the web ourselves to see, "What kind of websites do we like, and how could we find out who did that one?" We looked for smaller companies, and companies similar to ours, same industry. And if we liked the website, we figure out who is this person. And we settled on a company that was local to Charlotte. And I would say it wasn't an enormous company. I think they were just the right size to help us. And yeah, really sat and listened to us in their office about what we envisioned, what we were good at. And honestly, they got really excited about building this because they were excited about us.

Michael: Do you recall who it was? I love giving folks like that a shout out.

Jenny: Yeah, I think their name was Synchronicity.

Michael: Very cool.

Michael: So what was the focus of the website? I mean, did you have a particular specialization, or angle, or something that you were putting out there that was drawing and connecting in a lot of business?

Jenny: Well, we decided that we wanted a home page where people would land and see themselves there. So we built it with what we call client personas. Some of them were things like "too busy professional," "wants to retire," or "is retired." "Suddenly single" was another category. And people would see themselves there, land on their little box. Click on it to learn more. And then we'd have videos of us talking about what we do with that kind of client. So they would be kind of in the room with us, hearing from us. Another key component, I think, of that website was having Karen on the home page and a video telling her why. Why did she form this business? Why did she form it in the way she did? And speaking of her mom as her first client. And again, it's like client is in the room with her. And by the time people would call me...and I would take most of these prospective client calls. But by the time they would call us, it's almost like they already knew us.

Michael: Because of all the video, because of all of them hearing how you talked and how you communicated.

Jenny: Right. So I didn't have a lot of education to even do by that first call. They knew we were fee-only. They knew why that was important. There were other things that prompted it. And it was so interesting, but being women, and of course, we continued to build this practice, and have to hire people because we grew quickly pretty fast. And before we knew it, we had five women on our team. And if this doesn't get people's attention, having a team of five women on the website, we were getting attention from men and women. Then the men would call and say...they kind of whisper to me and say, "Well, I'm just thinking that women are going to do this really well." And so that was kind of like, "Well, I think we actually do." And then others would call, because a lot of the men would call, and they would say, "I want a place where my wife feels comfortable, because I know she's probably going out outlive me. And I think this might be the spot." So we got a lot of attention from just being women, I think.

Michael: Do you know what they were searching for to find their way to this website that was engaging them so well?

Jenny: Well, something prompted the search for an advisor, right? So that would always be my first question. What's prompting this search for an advisor? What are you looking for? And see what came out.

So there weren't a lot of fee-only firms in Charlotte at the time. I think there still aren't that many, but there's more than there were then. And so, yeah, we used fee-only financial advisor. Financial planner was another one because we knew a lot of brokers weren't using that word.

Michael: Okay. So how did this show up from a growth perspective? How many clients were coming through from this? Are you getting a client every month which picks you up quickly when you're starting at 11? Are you getting a client every week? How quickly did it start coming through?

Jenny: Yeah. I feel like a client every month sounds right. And we started with this low minimum, about $500,000 I think was where we started. And then we had to keep picking it up because we rapidly got to the point where we were like, "Okay," we looked at each other, "We're growing faster than we imagined. Maybe we need to pick up the size." So then we go to $750,000. And then get to a million. But yeah, we developed a business plan. And then I was watching the business plan of where we were landing, and we were going about 60% faster than that business plan.

Michael: So what was the original business plan projection? Do you know? Do you recall what were the milestones? What was it supposed to be and grow to?

Jenny: We started in 2012 together. We had projected about $350,000 of revenue by 2016, and that would be 4 years. But we ended that year with $550,000 in revenue and $100 million in AUM.

Michael: Wow.

Jenny: Yeah. And it was so fast. We were getting even the attention of our custodian, Fidelity, who gave us an award. It was hilarious. These glass things that were just so beautiful. And they loved us. They just were so infatuated with the clip at which we were growing. The fact that we were all women. We were getting a lot of attention even at our custodian.

Hiring Staff To Allow Her To Focus On Her Strengths [20:19]

Michael: So at what point did you have to start hiring, that it wasn't manageable enough for you and Karen alone? What was the first hire, and when did it kick in?

Jenny: Yes, our first hire was Amy Lowder, and she was our admin. We just needed somebody who could help us with appointments, greeting people at the door. First of all, we had to get a real office. I mean, that was progress, right? Which we did pretty quickly. We did that in 2012, started working at that. So we got an office. And then soon after we got this office, we got Amy to help us out, and she was fantastic. She was the person that would greet people at the door, but she has a huge personality. And people would immediately feel comfortable and engaged as soon as they met her. I would say the other piece of our success was hiring the right people. So, yeah, she was the first one.

And then, I would say, we were probably hiring another person each year. The funny thing is we would always ask ourselves, "What do we want to do less of? And what do we want to do more of?" And we give the “less of” to people we would hire. So maybe I needed somebody who would...or Karen really needed people more than I did. She needed somebody to start trading, and somebody to manage the portfolio reporting stuff. And those were the things she wanted to do less of. And then I needed eventually somebody to help on the planning side. And it was so interesting because I think we were even getting interest from people who wanted to work for our firm because of the fact that we were women. We were getting a lot of women who would approach us.

And so Erica Yount was the next hire, and she was a CFA. She basically sent her resume, "Can you use a CFA?" We said, "Absolutely. We need a person who can do the trading and some of the investing work to help Karen." So then we hired Melissa Boyer to be our planning person, but she had to be recruited. So we used a recruiter to help with that.

Michael: And who did you work with on the recruiting side to find?

Jenny: Well, it's interesting you ask, because I remember that you had a company. I can't even remember the name of it.

Michael: New Planner Recruiting.

Jenny: Yeah. I think we were using that. And I'm not sure if that was actual recruiter that helped us land Melissa. But Melissa, she was working over at LPL, and she was not interacting directly with clients, but she had a lot of experience training people on planning software and knowing how to plan. So that became key because she had also come from the insurance business. So I would say anybody who gets hired and knows more than we know about something is going to be really helpful.

Michael: It quickly becomes the five of you. I guess, when did each of these hires come? Was it basically one a year? You're adding $100,000 of revenue every year, and then you have to hire another person every year?

Jenny: Amy came pretty early on, probably by the end of 2012. We had some misfires too. We had somebody else we hired along the way from Vanguard who didn't...she just wasn't the right fit. She was on the planning side. And when I was asking her to do things, I don't think she was really excited about the work. And so she ended up quitting. And that was really hard because that was a lot of training, a lot of my time working on plans and training her. And then that didn't work out. So that's why we hired Melissa. But I do think that Erica was our second hire after Amy. And she probably came in maybe 2013 or 2014. And then Melissa was, you're right, probably soon after 2014, 2015.

Michael: And all just framing from this phenomenon where you and Karen just kept saying, "What do we need to do less of now? Okay, that's the next position where we need to do less of now when thinking about the next position."

Jenny: Yeah. If we were to offload something from our plate, what would we like to offload?

Structuring A Business Partnership That Worked For Jenny And Her Firm’s Owner [24:49]

Michael: So as this is building and growing, can I ask, what was the business arrangement between you and Karen as you had come together to create this? I mean, was this technically still her ownership of the business, and you were a salaried employee? Did you share an equity ownership more directly? How did it work when you're coming and joining her in the business, but then you're joining forces, and it's growing so much faster with the two of you?

Jenny: That's a good question. In one of my initial lunches to get to know Karen, she told me, "Well, I know one thing for sure. I will never have a partner because partnerships are worse than marriage, because the breakups are terrible." And she said, "That's just something I'm not interested in." So I don't know what made me ignore that, but I just plowed right in anyway. And we just did so well together. And I think one of the things that was really important to this journey together was, as we approached 2016, and we were four years in, I basically said to her, "I want to continue to help you with these things, but I can't do that when I'm not your partner. And to be honest with you, I feel that I've been acting like your partner for a long time." And she agreed. She said, "You absolutely have been acting like you are as much of an owner in this company as I am because you're so passionate about our success." And I think that's really what won her over. She finally offered me that partnership in early 2017.

Michael: And so did you buy in at that point? Did you just sort of split what was there? How do you navigate that when it's been growing for a few years already?

Jenny: Yeah, we didn't even know how to go about this. I mean, this is, again, something we're not good at. I mean, we know what we're good at, but we have to get good at this now. How do we develop the legal infrastructure to be a partnership, and to get Karen what she wants, and get me what I want, and what I need? And how do I buy it? So we ended up engaging, I guess they're called FP Transitions, to help us with this. And they were really great. I mean, they helped us get that legal infrastructure and a lot of mentoring on how to do this, and get everybody what we wanted so that we had the legal protection between us to make it work. And then the other thing that Karen was so generous in doing was she offered me a loan, a personal loan, so that I could buy the piece that she was offering. So I would be obligated to pay her back. And we had a note between us.

All of this starts with trust, right? That has to be the basis of all of this. And I think we trusted each other so completely that we had each other's back, that this really wasn't an issue. And honestly, I felt that it was so important that I landed with Karen as my person, because I felt she really valued and respected me. And I don't know that that would have happened necessarily with everyone that I would have worked with. But like I said from the very beginning, she said, "I want you to lead this effort. I want you to develop the financial planning style that you think is right for us." So that spoke volumes to me.

Michael: I know this becomes a sensitive issue for some advisors on these paths. Did you have concerns that you were buying into this thing that you had helped create to this point? And, "It's more expensive now because I spent the past three or four years with you building it to this point." Was that an issue or not a problem, because you were so excited for what you were building going forward?

Jenny: Yeah, I think that occurred to me, and I think it would to anyone. And at the same time, it wasn't lost on me that she took all the risk. She's the one that bought the building that we were having our office in. She's the one that developed the business to begin with and how it was going to work. The RIA, the AUM model, we've worked in DFA. She's the entrepreneur. She took all the risk. So I just kind of still focus on the positive that she was extending a partnership to me.

Michael: And then, I'm presuming, if FP Transitions was helping with some of the structuring of agreements, that they also did the valuation, and then you just used their valuation and say, "Here's the number."

Jenny: Yeah, that's exactly right. And that's so important to get that right. So, yeah, it was expensive. And I think a lot of folks don't realize when they see partners who own businesses that a lot of us have to buy that. That it's not just free.

The Operational Stresses Of A Growing Firm [30:38]

Michael: Yeah, yeah. So what happened next? You're early 2017 now. It's growing really well. You're north of $500,000 of revenue. There's five of you. What happens next? What's the state of the business at this point?

Jenny: Well, I'll tell you, in 2017, I think we were really starting to talk about we might need to do a partnership with another firm. I think with that growth comes responsibility. How are we going to continue? What does our future look like when we grow at this pace? And we were always very mindful, because we're planners, of what that looks like for us. And like I said, I came in part time initially. I was working 20-hour weeks. And I remember turning to Karen in the very beginning and saying, "We're just going to have fun with this. This is going to be a neat hobby." We weren't really planning to work full-time-plus. We love the work, but we just kind of said, "Wow, what has just happened here? We have all this responsibility. And there's so much pressure and stress all of a sudden. And there's stuff that we have to be good at that we don't feel good at." Like human resources. I mean, that is a lot of pressure. How do we hire people? How do we have benefits for them? How do we even interview people, and not ask the wrong questions and get ourselves in legal trouble? I don't know anything about that stuff.

And then, of course, there's compliance. That was the really scary thing. And I remember so much of this, we were trying to support each other. And when Karen would feel overly stressed because, of course, this is mostly her company, and she said, "I hate this stuff." And I'd say, "Well, what do you hate? Let me take it." Because I was her partner, and I wanted to help. So I ended up being the director of HR, and the chief compliance officer. And we were all wearing so many hats. And we felt like, "This is getting crazy pretty fast."

Michael: And was it viable to just say, "Then we need to hire some more people to handle the HR and the compliance," and just keep doing what you were doing before where you ask yourselves, "What do we need to do less of," and hire a person to do that? What changed from that formula?

Jenny: Yeah, that's a good question. When it came to the compliance, I remember telling her, "I think we need more expertise here, and maybe we could farm that out." So we ended up finding a group of professionals that would come in and do those mock audits to see where do we fit along all the compliance stuff we're supposed to be doing. And so, yeah, you can hire out that function and help yourself. I'm still chief compliance officer, I'm still responsible for all this. And we thought about, “We could hire more people down the road.” At the same time, we knew we're not getting any younger. And Karen and I, unfortunately, we're almost the same age. We're two years apart. So we've got to think about...

Michael: And you're both career changers. This is not a 30-year window for you from here. You're already well into your career.

Jenny: No, we were late-in-life career changers. So we thought, "We really need to make a plan for our future so that we could eventually have freedom to do what we want to do with our life, and the rest of our lives once we get older." And we were getting expensive for our internal people. And so we knew that's not going to work either, to just keep selling shares internally. We just kept scratching our heads, and puzzling and puzzling, because...

Michael: Was anyone internally even able to take over and manage clients, to do what you and Karen were doing? Aside from the affordability, could they even do it? Or were they more support capacity folks? Wonderful support capacity, but may not be able to run it on their own even if they could afford it.

Jenny: Yeah, I'm not sure the capability was there yet at the time. It would have been maybe if we kept working with those folks, and bringing them into meetings, and all of that, they would have gotten there, I'm sure of it. We had really good people.

Michael: But they still may not had the financial risk appetite for how valuable the business was getting.

Jenny: I know. And then the other thing is who wants to actually own it, run it? That's a career change in itself, isn't it, for those people? Having that responsibility now go to them. The responsibility that we were thinking we didn't want forever. Right? So we just started scratching our heads and thinking, "What if we just merged with a company that's our size, or maybe just a little bit bigger, and then maybe we could kind of keep what we like, and it wouldn't have to be that big of a deal?"

Michael: So just find a company to merge with that maybe has someone who, God bless, actually likes doing all the “run the business” stuff, like, "Great news we’ll make you bigger. You can run more things. And then deal with all these things that we don't want to run anyways. Everybody wins."

Jenny: Well, guess what happened. You guessed it, Michael. We couldn't find a partner that wanted to keep the business. I mean, the more we were asking questions, the more we realized they want us to be their succession plan, that we're going to keep work until we're 80, I guess. And that responsibility thing…

Michael: So you went to shop for a succession plan, and found people who wanted you to be their succession plan.

Jenny: That's exactly what we were finding. Everybody else was aging out, too, and nobody had any answers. One of the firms that we were looking at, they were what we called a sister firm. We loved them very much. And they helped us with our own model. And they were out of Middleburg, Virginia. And they had aging partners, same issues. And we realized very quickly we were going to be their succession plan. But not only that, they were in a different state, and this is kind of silly, but I think they ended up going to Buckingham.

Finding A Good Fit With Modera [38:02]

Michael: Interesting. So you're searching around for some way to merge, and not finding that mergers are viable because everyone around your size seems to be around your age or older, and doesn't want to be your successor. They want you to be their successor.

Jenny: That's exactly right.

Michael: Which doesn't work. So what comes next? Where do you go after that?

Jenny: So then, I guess, we've realized we're going to have to look at some larger players out there, who have more infrastructure, more people, so that they can help us with this eventual problem of succession. I think we did consider Buckingham. And then, while we were looking at them, I think Karen knew some of the folks at Modera from the NAPFA study groups and things. And she called Tom Orecchio and started conversations around that. I mean, this happened pretty early on, I would say 2018. Maybe even in that year we were talking to Modera. This took years, this plan. I mean, that's the messaging that, really, we were starting this process in 2017, started conversations with Modera in '18. And by '19, we were doing serious conversations with Modera and legal work to start to figure out how this would work. But that's what really brought us to Modera, was they were the size that was going to fit what we needed.

Michael: What was their size, or at least at the time?

Jenny: At the time we merged with them, they were almost $3 billion AUM, around $2.75 I think. And that just felt right.

Michael: And what were you up to at that point? You said you were crossing $100 million back in 2016, into '17. So what were you by 2019 when you're doing legal work and queuing this up?

Jenny: It is going to blow your mind, but we just kept continuing to grow, like we knew would happen. And by the time we merged with Modera at the end of 2019, we had reached $250 million AUM, and over 100 client families.

Michael: Wow. So growth just continued on the same tear throughout. Were you still five people, or had you hired some additional?

Jenny: No, we were still five people. And we always said that we were hiring for growth. So, see, we were hiring early to get that fifth person to help me, because I, and this is what's great about being small, I could just turn to Karen and say, "We need to hire a head of what we need. I need to be training people now to help with what we're bringing in." And she would say, "Oh, that makes perfect sense. Let's do it." You just feel so nimble.

Michael: So it got very, very profitable as it went as well. There were 5 of you in 2016, when you're at $100 million and $500,000 or $600,000 of revenue. Then the firm like 2.5Xs, so I'm presuming you were a million to a million and a half dollars of revenue by the end. And it's the same five people.

Jenny: That's right.

Michael: So the economics of the practice, I guess, got quite good even as you were queuing up for a sale transaction.

Jenny: It literally blew our minds. It really did. And remember, we were also open to things that firms weren't open for me on, which was hiring people part time. We had two on our staff who were part time all the way through, and we said, "That's fine with us. We understand because we're all moms. We get it." And the other thing that was really interesting for our culture was when kids needed stuff, they were home sick, or we needed to pick up somebody for school, we had lots of flexibility because we all got that problem, and we were supporting it.

Michael: So you go through this process. So I guess even with all the growth, Modera acquiring you was...I mean, they were 10X your size. They have a lot of capacity to handle this. Very different than merging with someone that was similar to your size, or slightly larger as you had originally envisioned. This would be a much larger platform with a lot more resources.

Jenny: Yeah, this was big time. This is big time. This is exactly, I think, what we needed at the time. And when I mentioned to Karen that I felt like this firm was large enough, but not so large that we couldn't have some influence and have some say in what the firm would grow to become. And I think that was what made it so exciting.

Michael: I was going to ask, there's a little bit more these days than 2019, but even then, there's so many firms out there that are expressing interest in growth and willingness to acquire. I've got to presume there were more other conversations going on with other firms beyond Modera, and the firm in Middleburg.

Jenny: Yeah. And I'm not sure, back then, if the mergers were on such a tear as they became later. I mean, we had to pursue. And I wasn't party to all the conversations Karen was having with FP Transitions who continued to help us. And there were definitely some ideas going on between them and Karen.

Michael: But it wasn't today's environment where people are calling every week…

Jenny: No, this got crazy later. Yeah, we weren't part of the crazy, I think.

Michael: This continuous flow of, "I'm Bob. I'm an associate with this PE [Private Equity] firm. I'd love to learn more about your business."

Jenny: Right. Yeah. So I think we were in the early days of the M&A stuff. In fact, we were in the early days for Modera. They started really doing the mergers back in 2011, and they were on one-a-year clip. So we were only the sixth merger. We have to specifically call them acquisitions, but we were the sixth acquisition for them. And I would say we were still pretty early on with Modera considering the size we are now.

Michael: So what made Modera a yes, or ruled out other firms as no's? What were the deal breakers, and the big positives as you were evaluating the landscape and the options? Besides, "We're looking for successors. We can't be yours."

Jenny: I know. Well, you know what's so funny, Michael, is I felt like we were getting a lot of interest. People liked us because we were growing fast, obviously. And people were attracted to that. And so I felt like we were kind of dating. And so we dated a lot of firms and kept talking to people. But then, when we hit on Modera, I felt like, first of all, there were nine owners of Modera at the time, and they were all men, and an all-male leadership team at the time. And so we really felt like it was really...we had some reservations about that. What was that going to be like for us? And we kept asking questions, but what we would get back was exactly what we wanted to see. They were so respectful of us, and so interested in us. And that came through loud and clear that I remember in one of the meetings with Tom Orecchio, who I don't know if you know, but he continues to be our CEO. And he looked at us and said, "I want to be really clear with you all. We're not interested in you for your clients necessarily. We're interested in you for your talent." And you could have heard a pin drop. I mean, I'll never forget that because I thought, "This is really interesting. They really want us."

The Financial Advisory M&A Courtship And Deal-Making Process [47:41]

Michael: So were there any surprises in going through the deal-making transaction merger processes, I guess, as you went through this in 2019?

Jenny: Yeah, I think the merger process is hard. It's a negotiation, isn't it? It's saying, "This is what I want. This is what I think I'm going to be missing once I merge. How are we going to address that?" For example, we knew we were going to lose our brand, and maybe the phone would stop ringing. And yet, we had to be okay with that. And this is something where some of the Modera partners just said, "You have to consider that as part of the merger, what you give and give up as your brand." And that's hard.

Michael: I guess not even just the brand, but the brand with this website you made that's working really well and driving a lot of business to you, because people are searching for a fee-only planner in Charlotte, and finding their way to you.

Jenny: All of it. Yeah. And so it became this negotiation. So we kept floating around at the different offices to make sure we knew the key players, and that these are people we want to work with. And I remember being up in Boston at their office up there with Karen, and we were doing more planning, negotiating. Maybe this was in early 2019, I don't know. And one of the partners, we were finishing up meetings, and Karen and I were waiting for our Uber. And one of the partners said, "If you'll just hold on for a minute, don't call your Uber yet." We were literally standing on the street. He says, "I'm going to be right back." And he made us wait, and he came back with a box of chocolates for each of us. And the dating thing, the courtship, that's what's so funny is I was totally smitten by this company. These people were so respectful of us. They really wanted to be our partners. And so, really, what led us to Modera, I think, more than anything else, was the people. We liked the people a lot.

Michael: So how did this work from, I guess, just a deal transaction end? Did they buy your shares and Karen's shares, and you get a check and you're done? Did they trade your stock for their stock, and you become Modera shareholders instead? How did the transaction work for you?

Jenny: Yeah. We're all interested in saving taxes, number one. But also, we were interested in being partners at Modera. So we did the share exchange. And Karen and I became partners at Modera. And in all of these negotiations, we got to ask for things. They got to ask for things. We wanted to make sure that we had a voice in the company. So we asked for leadership roles. Karen became the first woman to ever sit on their board. We, of course, were two of the first female owners. They had had one other owner before who had left to be a caretaker for her family. But yeah, this was really exciting for us. And then she wanted to sit on their investment committee, and they said yes to that. And then I wanted to sit on the financial planning committee. So they said yes to that. So, already, when we're signing up for all this, we knew we were going to have some influence, and that it could get pretty fun and exciting for us.

Contributing Previous Marketing Successes To Shape The Modera Brand [51:40]

Michael: So what other kinds of asks did you and Karen have that were important to you in process?

Jenny: I think just sitting on those committees, we were pretty vocal about, "These are some of the things that we're interested in seeing more of." For example, we're obviously interested in their website, right? And we were looking at that and saying, "We want to have some influence on that." And talked about some of the things that we wanted on the website. And they seemed open to it. This is all, again, part of the negotiations, right? As you're going through things, you want to test people and see, are they open to some of these things, or are they shutting down? They have a saying at Modera that they told us about, which is, "You will have a say, but you won't always get your way." And we loved that. So we understood that completely and we said, "Well, as long as you're willing to take some..." Because we told them how much business we were getting, and of course, they were interested in that. So we were talking about the website from the very beginning.

Michael: And so how did that land? You had this wonderfully successful website, albeit branded under under Keatley Wealth. So what happens to the website?

Jenny: I know. So sad, right? Our primary business generation tool. It is really like the lights just go out instantly. So on January 1 of 2020, the day we became Modera, the website was shut down and never appeared again. But, of course, if people were to search for Keatley Wealth Management, it would direct them to Modera. But yeah, the phone did stop ringing. And we had to then think about other ways to develop business.

Michael: How frustrating is it when your primary source of business development shuts down, and it really does result in the phone not ringing anymore?

Jenny: That was really heartbreaking, actually. At least I knew this was what was going to happen, that we weren't going to get that back. And I remember...

Michael: And there was no way to recreate it in Modera's website design, website framework? There wasn't a way to try to bring the magic back?

Jenny: Well, that's what you realize, it's a sacrifice, right, Michael? When you merge with a large company, you're not as nimble anymore. So, now, the wheels are going to turn really slowly. This has to be done by committees, and lots of thought, it's going to take time. Everything takes a lot more time. And I think when you merge with a larger partner, patience becomes a virtue, right? You have to believe that you're going to be successful even when it takes longer. And we knew, I guess, in our hearts that people were probably going to listen. That we'd probably bring this around to develop the branding that we thought was going to help to drive more business, and having these influential roles for Karen sitting on the board. And eventually she developed an even greater leadership role at this company a couple of years later. And so did I. People were listening, and we finally got it done. I'm very proud of the website that we have right now. It reflects a lot of what we wanted in the Keatley website.

Michael: So you eventually were able to rebuild the Modera website in the similar style?

Jenny: Yes.

Michael: And so has it brought any of the magic back? Did it get things flowing again?

Jenny: Not exactly. I mean, it definitely is bringing more than when we started with this company. It's definitely bringing in a lot more business. And I would say it gets better every year. And we haven't gotten to how Modera has grown on its own, which is really something. But as we get more partners that come in with...I like to call them partners. These are acquisitions, we are on a tear. And as we get new talent in here, people have lots of great ideas. So it wasn't just our ideas creating this website. It's everyone's ideas. And we hired a really good professional branding company. Remember, I told you, we had a small website developer before. We didn't have a branding company. This is a big deal. And now, when we look at this website, it's really incredible how different it is now, and how, to me, it reflects something I'm really proud of.

The Challenges Of Transitioning Into A Larger Firm [57:13]

Michael: Very cool. Very cool. So help us understand more what the roles and responsibilities were supposed to become after you did this merger, because you had all these different hats that you were wearing. Karen had investments and a bunch of clients. You had planning and a bunch of clients. You also had operations and HR, and chief bottle washer, and all the things that happen in small business environments were growing. So how did the roles get redefined for you, and I guess for Karen to the extent that you know, when you went through this transaction and into the new role?

Jenny: Well, this is when it got really hard, because once you switch your lights off and you become Modera, first of all, we didn't really know anybody. We just knew some of the partners. And there was already another firm that had merged in and formed a Charlotte office across town. And we were just getting to know them. They were in a completely different office. And then wouldn't you know that it was 1/1/20 when we shut our lights off and became something else? And that was the beginnings of the pandemic. So how were we going to get to know these folks all over Modera? Because to me, making connections and building trust is the way we build success, right?

Michael: Yeah.

Jenny: To influence, to grow, to enjoy a new company. And we started out without even having the ability to see people in person. Pretty rapidly, we moved to home offices. It was really hard. So, I think, for any merger, this is the hardest phase of all, is that first six months to a year of shutting down what you love, and what you've built, and becoming something else. And deciding this is all that I'm going to have to sacrifice, and maybe I can move this big company in some of the directions we want it to go if we continue to build trust and connection. But it starts with, you can't even keep your technology anymore. Right? You've got to rebuild everything. And you're bringing clients along. You've got to tell them and get their buy in. And what was driving most of our discussions around succession, and merging, and all that was getting the right fit for our clients, and getting the right plan for them. And so we had to tell them all. These are dark days, right? Where you're making these calls and telling clients, "This is something we're trying to do to improve your journey, not just our journey, and give you a plan."

Michael: How did you explain it? I mean, when you get to the, "We're merging," and have to tell all the clients that it's going to say Modera from now on? How did you actually communicate a message, all this to clients?

Jenny: It was really tough, Michael. I mean, this is one of the hardest things you have to do. And one thing I did know is we're not going to do this by way of a letter or email. I wanted to call each client individually to give them a chance to share how do they feel about this, and how can I help answer that. And I think they really appreciated that.

Michael: Because you were really concerned that they would be negative, or not happy, or not want to be part of this?

Jenny: Oh, definitely. I don't think anybody likes change. It starts with that. They want it to be the same. And of course, then they worried we're going to leave. So we kept saying things like, "This is our responsibility, this is our duty, not just help you plan for your future, but plan for your future with a firm. With a firm that will help you indefinitely beyond our lifetimes, whatever. And give you that longevity." We told them about how hard we worked to find the right culture and fit, that this essentially was the same as our firm, but just a lot bigger. They were the same investment philosophy, the same philosophy around working with clients and their dedication to that. One of the first fee-only firms in the business. So we worked really hard at that. But we told them, "What we desire from you is to feel nothing different. You're just going to see a new name on the door."

Michael: So given that part of the driver of this was you and Karen wanted some level of succession plan and path to be able to exit. What were your time horizons at this point? I mean, did this change or reset your time horizon because now you could get back to client stuff, and be not quite as buried in some of the other things that you weren't enjoying?

Jenny: Yeah, and I think we didn't know. We just knew that we didn't want to do it forever. But I think as we got into Modera, and got through some of the really tough stuff, we started to really enjoy it more. And then we ended up working longer maybe then. I know Karen has gone to an emeritus advisor role now, so she's not working as much in the company now. She's more effectively retired. And I'm still here. But we really enjoyed it, and I think keep enjoying this place. And it's what FP Transitions told us would happen. They said, "Frequently what we would find is people, once they merge, they stay on longer than they thought. They start to get the monkey off their back, and then they enjoy what they've always wanted to do."

Michael: So how did clients take the news? Did you have folks who left and didn't want to come along?

Jenny: We maybe lost two, but they were small. And of course, they're never fun to lose. And I remember running into Karen's office one day and going, "I can't even believe we're losing this client." She says, "Tell me they're another small one." And she says, "I think when you merge with a larger company, you're going to have larger companies, and the small ones are going to feel lost sometimes."

Michael: Because they're literally afraid now they're becoming a small fish in a much bigger pond.

Jenny: That's right.

Michael: Which, to be fair, probably is accurate.

Jenny: Right. But we still felt like we were giving them the same level of attention, but we could not change how they felt about being part of this enormous firm. Which seemed enormous to them, because as you said, it was 10 times the size.

Why Wealthier Clients Are Attracted To Larger Firms [1:05:10]

Michael: Did anything swing the other way? Were there clients who brought more, or referred more, or were more engaged because you were part of a larger firm, or mostly just the concerns of who was going to leave because they didn't want to come along?

Jenny: Well, interestingly, as we started to make this thing more public towards the end of 2019, we did land a really large client that I don't think we would have been able to if we didn't have the heft that we were looking for. And I think that continued, that we were able to get larger clients, and saw that that wasn't even a thing. Whereas, we would always get these discussions with prospective clients who would say, "Well, what happens if one of you gets hit by the bus? Where does that leave me? What's your succession plan?" So we're always trying to answer that and not too well.

Michael: Because you did have clients who were asking?

Jenny: Yes. And we know we lost business because we weren't big enough. Frequently, it was the larger deals.

Michael: Well, there's long been a pretty well-documented phenomenon in the industry overall that larger advisory firms tend to attract larger clients. There's astonishingly direct correlation between the AUM of a firm, and the average client of a firm, all the way from firms that are less than $100 million to firms that have a billion, to firms that have several billion. The larger the asset base, the larger the average client.

Jenny: Yeah. So in prospective clients’ meetings, it was interesting to see that turn, that that wasn't an issue anymore, that we weren't big enough, that we couldn't handle them. And so, yeah, we were getting larger clients and pretty easily.

Michael: And so I'm presuming, on the other end of this, your equity shares roll into Modera, and you simply have a salary for the work you do in the firm now. Was that the transition on the other end?

Jenny: Yeah. We negotiated our salaries, and negotiated more, and that was nice. And then we did our share exchange. And this was at the time where Modera, as I said, when we came in, was just under $3 billion [AUM]. And so we got to be part of the ride after that, because now we're partners. And I asked to buy more shares of Modera at the time we came in, and negotiated for the same price that the other new partners were coming in for. Modera worked to help me finance that. So there were a lot of ways that they were helping us already personally. And so that was exciting because I got in on Modera fairly early, when their M&A work, I believe. And so did Karen. What we didn't know, Michael, was that the multiples for large companies are higher. Right?

Michael: Right. So the firm got bigger, and the multiples got better, which means that the value did very, very well over the past four years.

Jenny: Oh, my gosh, we never saw that coming. Honestly, I had no idea.

Michael: Well, what was leaning you to want to buy more shares when you were coming in?

Jenny: I don't know. I guess I really wanted to be a significant partner. And if it was offered to me, I thought, "I want to take this." I knew how the share value at Keatley had grown, and I thought by the same token, they should grow at Modera. I didn't know it was going to grow this much with those kinds of multiples.

Michael: So what does it look like now? What's the size and scope of the firm today?

Jenny: We're about $12.5 billion [AUM].

Michael: Wow. Okay. So, roughly, 4X in 4 years.

Jenny: Yeah. So it's crazy, but Modera has been growing faster than Keatley grew, just through our M&A work, and organic growth, about 35% per year.

Michael: Wow. Wow.

Jenny: It's been quite a journey.

Michael: And so help me understand, what does your actual role look like now, today, at this point? What are you still doing? What have you let go through this transition over the past four years since the deal closed?

Jenny: So, first of all, Karen and I ended up taking bigger roles, much, much bigger, I think, once we came in, and we started to really connect with people, and they started to value what we were bringing to the table. Karen, she grew into an enormous role where she was essentially running and in charge of all of the wealth management and the investment management for the firm. So I'm like, "What's left? I mean, you're essentially president." I think her title was Chief Wealth Officer, or something. But she had a really big job. And then I became the person who was the lead advisor here in Charlotte. Like you said, Michael, not only did we not retire or back off the gas, but we just plugged right in, and got going, and really enjoyed these leadership roles. And since that time, of course, as I said, Karen has gone to mostly retirement, and I have also stopped leading the Charlotte office here. I've just given that to other folks in the office. And I think what we're interested in now is really educating and inspiring this next generation here at Modera, and getting that going.

Michael: Interesting. I'm sort of struck by the things that work out as expected, and then the things that come along separately. So you wanted to solve for succession. You did. And you wanted to get rid of the monkeys on your background operations, and HR, and such. And you did. But then indirectly, when the monkeys came off your back, you actually ended up taking on larger leadership roles, and it turned out the firm that you rolled equity into actually grew faster than the firm that you had originally, which means it mathed better as well. It turned out having a piece of their stock went even better than the stock that you had in the first place with a lot more people contributing to it.

Jenny: Yeah. How crazy is that, right?

Michael: Yeah. Funny how it shifts.

Jenny: Right. None of this was expected.

What Surprised Jenny The Most On Her Journey [1:12:28]

Michael: So as you reflect back on this journey, what surprised you the most about the path of building an advisory business over the better part of a decade now that you've been doing this?

Jenny: I think how much I would enjoy it. And be good at it, maybe because I enjoyed it. What I enjoyed the most is the deep connections I made with clients, and the people that I work with.

Michael: And that was surprising, just you didn't think the relationships would go that far?

Jenny: No, no. I just thought, "Well, this is just going to be people's money. They're not going to want to really show me who they really are, and connect with me in that deep way." I realized early on that people have a lot of emotion around their money, and that I could be part of that, just really helping them manage how they feel about their money, believe that they're going to be successful. And because of that, help make them successful and watch them thrive. I mean, what could be a more fun job than that, right? Seeing people transformed.

Michael: And that was different from the banking world.

Jenny: Oh, my gosh, yes. Banking, by the time I hit it back in the late '80s, had already become very sales focused. And so, when I hit commercial banking, we were told the days of the bankers putting their feet on their desk, and the business walking in the door asking for loans are long gone. You will be pounding the pavement, you will be selling. And depending on what side of the bank I was working on, but particularly in corporate banking, you're just a number. You are the interest rate that you're charging on your loan. They don't really care as much about me. When I was in small business lending, I saw a little bit of that, but I couldn't connect with my clients in the same way.

Michael: Interesting. Interesting. Did you realize the personal relationship dynamics were going to be that different in the financial planning world versus the banking world?

Jenny: I had no idea, Michael. No idea. I never thought I'd love this work this much, or that I'd be this good at it, too. I mean, it's one of those things where you have to believe in yourself. And I honestly think it was probably what I was meant to do all along. I love connecting with people, and helping them. Someday, in my next chapter, I'd love to influence more young women to get into this field because it is so psychology- and helping-based. And I think a lot of us and females really gravitate to those kinds of fields. And we want to see people change and thrive with our help. And that's what I enjoy so much about the work I've been doing all these years.

The Low Point On Jenny’s Journey [1:16:10]

Michael: So as you reflect back on this journey, what was the lowest point?

Jenny: I think the lowest point was in the initial stages of this merger. I mean, I can't paint...

Michael: The initial stages after the merger?

Jenny: Of the merger, yeah, when we turned off our website, turned off everything we had built, and became something different. And it was expected to be instant. And these were probably the darkest days. And these mergers are very difficult, Michael. I mean, it's not like you just sign the paper and you immediately become this new person at a new company. And it's not like when you get hired at a new job either. We had so much work to do. For example, we were on Money Guide Pro, so we had to move every single client off of that platform by hand onto eMoney. It's not like that happens automatically. So we had to engage. I had to ask people to work hard. The people that helped us with our company, our little company, and were so loyal to us, I had to ask them to feel the pain. And it was in the middle of the pandemic. So I kept asking Karen, "What can we do for our people? Because I feel so badly about what we've asked of them, to go through all this extra work and pain because it's something that we wanted to do." So I remember having them all back in my backyard around a campfire at one point saying...not singing Kumbaya, but just basically really having these hard conversations about how it feels, and what we're going through, and how we can help.

Michael: So what do you know now you wish you could go back and tell you a couple of years ago to help navigate that, or make that less challenging?

Jenny: Well, that it's going to be worth it. That these folks that we believe in because we like them so much, these Modera people that we picked, that they are going to have our backs as much as we're going to have theirs. Even though we call these acquisitions, they're really partnerships that form. And every single person I ran into at Modera said, "I want to help you. How can I do it? Tell me what I can do." And that it will get better working with these folks who really want to help. And, eventually, the pain of that merger goes away, and you're all part of the team. So that's what I would tell myself in those dark days.

Michael: How long did it take before the pain of the merger went away?

Jenny: Honestly, I feel like it a full year to really feel like, "We've done this now." And honestly, part of it is I'm an old dog, too, and so is Karen. Just learning all this new technology, it's not easy. I mean, I feel like tech just gets harder and harder. These engineers that create it create bells and whistles. So it was challenging, the new CRM. Pretty much everything had to be changed. So we had to really just dig in and endure that. And I remember someone telling me, "Well, a senior person doesn't have to know eMoney or get to know it." Some of the partners said to me, "You really shouldn't be doing that, learning that." But I was determined, Michael. I wanted to know eMoney so I understood what it could do, and help as a leader with that, too.

Michael: So what advice would you give to younger, or even just newer advisors that could be career changing as well? What advice would you give advisors coming into the industry today, and trying to figure out their own path to navigate?

Jenny: Well, first of all, what surprises me about this industry, and with the young people who come in is how much they focus on what's in the textbook, what you got to know to help clients with the technical stuff around financial planning. But I would say to them, the important stuff that you're going to learn and need to learn isn't going to come from the textbook. And in my view, seeking out people you admire, and working to learn from them is the most important thing you can do. Those people who are successful in the ways that you admire, set up a call with them, figure it out, learn from them. And above all, take notes. I'm a big note taker. I use OneNote. Sometimes I use my phone to take notes. But when I hear somebody say something, and the way they say it that I like, I write it down. Because communication is hard in this industry, and learning how to communicate in such a way that clients want to take your advice, and they understand what you're trying to get them to do...

Michael: Wait, so you keep a running list of...this is going to sound wrong, like lines to use with clients? I like that has a very negative connotation.

Jenny: I know, it sounds terrible. Like scripts, right?

Michael: The good version of lines to use with clients.

Jenny: I know. Well, I tell you, and this came from a different partner, one of these lines, which is that “Volatility in the market is the price we pay for the returns that we want.” And I wrote that down. I wrote that down four years ago and I was like, "I love that." But I had to write it down and practice it. And I will say, from my own personal success, nothing's been more important than learning how to communicate well. Because if you can't communicate with your clients these concepts to get them to take your advice, then you got nothing, right? So, yeah, I literally write everything down. But I also was seeking out...remember how I told you I was having all those lunches with people that I wanted to get to know? And there were a lot of people that I decided, "I don't want to work for that firm." But as we merge with new partners here at Modera, new people come in that I like that I see. And I make an appointment with them, and I start to work to learn from them. "How did you become successful in growing your firm? What do you attribute that to? How do you talk about this?" And when I hear them say stuff and I like it, I write it down. Every time.

Michael: Out of curiosity, are you willing to share the quote list?

Jenny: Oh, wow. I've got it on so many platforms right now. But everybody...

Michael: I think everybody's looking for just useful ways to say things and explain concepts. Would you be willing to even share just a page of these that we can post for folks who are listening, and just want more ideas and inspiration for themselves?

Jenny: I could post a few maybe, that would be fun. In fact, you know what's fun to see now, Michael, is that people are using some of my own quotes here at the company. And one of the things I love to say to people that I work with is, "I need you to ‘dollarfy’ that for the client.” Don't just tell them they're going to save this percent of tax. That doesn't mean anything to them. They want money in their pocket. Tell them how much actual money they're saving. So they always use that. "Let's use Jenny's term ‘dollarfy.’ She's going to want us to do that." So it's fun to see some of the things that I've made up myself that I found working with clients, and training people. And then I learned a lot from Karen along the way, who is a master investment communicator. And so, I'll say, "Well, you all know how Karen would this, right?" One of the things she used to say is, "You, as an accumulator, somebody putting money in the market, should be wishing for a bear market." Imagine that. Because you want to see something on sale. I mean, how crazy is that? And to watch that person's face. So, yeah, it's been fun to take these things. But what I tell people about communication is you can't just...so the first part is taking what you like and writing it down. Then the next part is practicing it, so you can pull it out when you need it without it seeming rehearsed, or that it's not natural.

Michael: So how do you practice? Where do you practice? Of course, you can't practice on clients because it's supposed to be polished by the time you get to the clients.

Jenny: Well, maybe in those boring moments when you're sitting, waiting in line at the grocery store, the doctors, just pull out your notes on your phone, and start working at that. And I've gotten scripts from so many places. Nick Murray is wonderful. He even has a book, "Nick Murray's Scripts," because people love his scripts. The other master communicators, some of the best in the business that I've run across, is Dimensional [Fund Advisors]. So I tell them this every day, "I wouldn't be as good as I am today if it weren't for you all helping me learn to communicate well." And they weren't always good at it, right, Michael? When I came into this industry back in 2012, they were not good at it. They were boring. And now, oh, my gosh, what a difference.

Michael: Very cool. Very cool. If you're comfortable to share at least an abbreviated list of, I'm going to call them quotable quotes, I guess, for folks who are listening to this. This is episode 387. So if you go to kitces.com/387 in the show notes area, we'll have a short list here of at least a couple of quotable quotes maybe to try out whatever...Jenny, I guess whatever your favorites list is. Greatest hits.

Jenny: Yeah. I'm happy to share a few, but I will also encourage listeners to grow your own practice, grow your own scripting, find those people that you admire, that you've listened to them and you think, "Oh, my gosh, they've really got this." We have an expression around here, "If you can sit down with a prospective client with just a notepad and a pencil and sell the deal, you've got this." But practicing that, and working to hone how you say stuff is really, really important.

Michael: Yeah. I mean, I still feel like my planning communication style with clients was basically an amalgamation of about six or seven different senior advisors and partners and founders that I got to work with and under of the first four or five years of my career. And just hearing all the ways that they did it with their clients. And there are a lot of people with some very different styles. Sort of a similar version that, “I like how John says that part, but I really like how Dwight does that part, and I really like how Ken explains investments in that area.” I ended out with just this blending of the versions of language that people use that kind of resonated with my style.

Jenny: That's exactly right, Michael. That it can't be my way. It has to be your way. And developing your own way of speaking to people by pulling the things that you like, that make sense to you. But I will say, it takes work. This is not something that just comes easy or by luck. It takes a lot of work and intention to get good at it.

What Success Means To Jenny [1:28:54]

Michael: So, as we wrap up, this is a podcast about success. And just one of the themes that comes up is the word success means very different things to different people. You've had this wonderful growth path of success with the business, and what grew, and then ultimately got sold, or I guess rolled and merged into Modera, which just continued forward. So the business is in a wonderful place. How do you define success for yourself at this point?

Jenny: I love that question. For me personally, it's feeling like I've made a positive impact on somebody else's life. I think I said that earlier, that that's what surprised me about this profession, is how much of a difference I could make for people. And, interestingly, Michael, became Modera's mission statement, to make a lasting and positive impact on people's lives. So I feel like I've grown with this culture, and it's grown with me. And I'm just super excited about this journey, and what it's become for me and for the company.

Michael: Very cool. Very cool. Thank you so much, Jenny, for joining us on the "Financial Advisor Success" podcast.

Jenny: Okay. Well, thanks for having me, Michael. It's an honor for sure.

Michael: Thank you.