#FA Success Ep 384: Growing An Advisor Career From (Bank) Assistant To Partner While Also Growing A Family, With Hannah Provost

Resources Featured In This Episode:

• Hannah Provost
• Lomanto Provost Financial Advisors
• Redtail
• Redtail University
• Mailchimp
• OnceHub

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Full Transcript:

Michael: Welcome, Hannah Provost, to the "Financial Advisor Success" podcast.

Hannah: Thanks so much for having me, Michael.

Michael: I really appreciate you joining us today and looking forward to this conversation around as I think of just the different ways that we can come into the financial planning profession and eventually build to that point where we become a partner in a firm, our name is on the proverbial or actual door. I feel like the industry has been in this shift over the past 10 to 15 years driven, I think, in part from CFP Board really trying to promote financial planning in colleges and seeding hundreds of undergraduate financial planning programs where more and more young people are coming into the profession directly out of school. And I think that's wonderful and awesome.

But now, I've started to hear this alternative challenge cropping up of people saying, "Well, I'm interested in the financial planning world. It seems neat, but I didn't go to college for this originally. Am I behind the ball? Is it too late?" Or, "I can't get a financial planning job until I have experience. I can't get experience until I get a job. So, I'm stuck in this never-ending loop where I can't get the job without getting the job that I need to get the job," and raise this question about, "Well, how else can we get experience into the industry?" And I know you've lived a version of this path, and how do you come into the financial planning profession if you're not coming straight out of an undergraduate degree in financial planning? And so, just really excited to talk about what those paths look like and how you get your proverbial foot in the door to get a career going in financial planning if you didn't start there directly out of school.

Hannah: And I think there's really a myriad of paths. And so, we'll talk about mine today, but I hope that the takeaway message is that there's not a wrong way necessarily to do it. It's just a matter of finding what's going to work best for you and your family and your lifestyle and what you're trying to build.

Hannah’s Start In The Banking Industry [5:16]

Michael: So, can you share with us a little bit of how this path has evolved for you? What was your initial introduction to financial services world? And then, we'll, I think, go through how it's grown and evolved.

Hannah: Sure. So, my path really began when I was 20 years old, and I needed a job. I didn't care much what the job was, but I was coming from a retail setting and I was really ready to work regular hours. And so, I wound up at a bank, which was great for me because I had weekends off and nice benefits and good hours. And so, banking was not something that I went into as a profession or that I thought would even be long-term. But over the years in banking, I eventually met a CFP who was working as a bank financial advisor, and she was kind enough to take me under her wing. I had found that banking is great because you can help people, you can have somebody who walks into your office riddled with anxiety and worry and doubt about themselves and help sort things out. And I was just completely in love with that part of it. But there comes a time when there's not much more you can really learn about the banking side of things. And so, I was just really wowed when I started sitting in on client meetings with the CFP working for the bank because she was able to do that and take it to the next level.

Michael: So, help us understand what you were doing initially, though. What was the first job in the bank? What were you actually doing?

Hannah: When I first started, I worked in the Loan Department. And so, initially, I was fixing people's addresses, going through and applying or taking off late payments, very mundane, menial types of tasks. Eventually, I moved into the Trust Department, which is funny because at the time, I knew absolutely zero about trusts. I can't believe that they let me press any of the buttons or too much.

Michael: What were you doing? Was it another administrative role of keeping track of the trust itself?

Hannah: It was completely administrative. Yeah, it was completely administrative. So, I would have disbursements and receipts from trusts go in and out. I would help administer family loans that people had made. And honestly, it made no sense to me. I could tell you what I was doing that day. But in terms of how it fit into the bigger picture, no clue at all. I know what you mean.

Michael: So, like, there was a process, I was trained in it, I do these 6 things, and the process is done.

Hannah: Correct. Yes. Which was completely boring to me, but it paid the bills and was regular hours.

Michael: So, where did you go from Trust Department? Were you still in Trust Department when you got to start sitting in with the CFP or was there another step in moving around the bank?

Hannah: There was another move, and it accompanied a physical move. So, we moved from Burlington, Vermont, over to Plattsburgh, New York, following my husband's career. And in that move, I had to change jobs because the bank didn't have a location across the lake.

And so, when I moved across the lake, I came over to the branch side of banking. And so, this I thought was going to be more monotony and boringness and just get me to where I wanted to go next. And I wasn't quite sure where the next was at that point.

Michael: I was like, "Did you know where you wanted to go next?"

Hannah: I really didn't know, but I knew that we had a new mortgage and that I needed to work.

Michael: Okay, that'll do it.

Hannah: So, I entered the world of branch banking thinking again that I would only be there for a little while. And initially, I was hired as an assistant manager, but they started my training really as a teller. Their model was that if you're going to work at any position in our bank, you need to be able to do it from A to Z, start as a teller, see what the frontline is like, and then move through different parts of the branch banking system so that you can be a good team player, you can be of better service to your customers, and you can know what kinds of opportunities you're interested in in the future.

Michael: Oh, interesting. So, they just sort of built in with a "You're going to rotate through the jobs, learn the jobs. You can support your team more when you know all the things. And you might not even really know what you want to do yet. So, we'll give you a chance to do a bunch of different things so you can figure out which one you want to do."

Hannah: Exactly right, which I think still is a brilliant model.

Michael: Interesting. Yeah. And out of curiosity, a lot of advisors don't come through the banking world at all. We start in insurance or brokerage of some sort. So, can you explain just the difference between branch banking and not branch banking that you were doing previously, or what the significance of that is for those that just don't know banking world?

Hannah: Sure. Yeah. So, banking really is split into those 2 worlds where it's the business of banking and all of the backend operations that go into it. I would also really lump commercial banking into there, where most of your day is spent inside of 4 walls and not necessarily communicating too much with customers. That also is probably more similar to what advisors experience in their daily life where anything that happens is by appointment. You have time to catch up and think and do whatever work you need to do more on your own schedule. Branch banking is very different. So, with a branch, you are expected to be open certain hours, and you have no idea what's going to come in the door any given day. And so, it does force you to be more agile and more on your feet. You're under a time constraint all the time to get things finished and on to the next. And so, that was just, what a primer in the human experience because people from all different walks of life, all different socioeconomic classes, different professions, you see everybody in the bank.

And the other thing that you get to see is...what I now know is a glimpse. At the time, I didn't think of it that way. I thought I had the full view of their finances, but you get a glimpse into people's spending habits, just their... because you literally see the bank account.

Michael: Because you literally see the bank account, so...

Hannah: You literally see the bank account. Correct.

Michael: How much comes in, how much goes out, right? It's one thing to say, "You have a $10,000 balance," and it's another to say, "Because you bring in 2 grand and spend 2 grand, and that's a lot of money to you," or, "You bring in 50 grand and blow 50 grand every month. You're living paycheck to paycheck, and that's a tiny balance for you."

Hannah: Exactly right. And the other thing that you see is the overdraft report every morning when you're a branch manager. And so, it became clear to me early on that it really wasn't the people who had low incomes who are overdrawing their bank accounts, it was generally actually the people with very high incomes who just were not managing things very well. So, that was the other thing that really piqued an interest for me.

Michael: Interesting.

Hannah: Seeing that you can't out-earn money problems. It's not an income issue. Most of the time, it's a management issue.

Michael: And I'm struck then. So then, your takeaway from it was, "Yeah, even high-income folks still have a lot of money problems or issues if they can't figure out how to manage it properly."

Hannah: Exactly.

Michael: Very cool. Okay. So, you've made this transition from...I don't even know what you call it, non-branch banking, home office banking. Is there a label for that end? You've gone from the non-branch banking to the branch banking side. So now, you're rotating through the system because they're giving you the various roles so you can get a flavor of everything. You're living the, like, everything's reactive because you just have to deal with whoever walks in the branch and whatever is going on. So, what kinds of roles did you go through in the branch banking end that, I guess I'm curious, either that you liked or that you really didn't like? What did you rotate through and what were your takeaways?

Hannah: Oh, geez. So, a lot of it was repetition from my previous life where we would go through and work with the Electronic Funds Transfer Department or with the Loan Department, this and that. And I had really seen that side of it before. I knew that it was not engaging in the long run to me. We also went through the lending side. So, I was able to see up close and personal, how does a home equity line work? How does a mortgage work? How do we do auto lending and things like that? We also had a Municipal Banking Department, so we would handle lines of credit and sweep accounts for municipalities with millions of dollars. We really had a little bit of everything, and I had this growing anxiety a little bit as we went through because I was good at a lot of things there, but they weren't interesting to me. There was a mismatch there. So, really, it was when I sat with the CFP that everything clicked that, "Oh, yes, I really can have a career here that's engaging to me where I can also feel like I'm helping somebody." I really like to help a particular person. It's wonderful to have society impact, but there's really nothing like sitting with somebody whom you've helped. So, that was the other thing that was just really exciting to me about this career path in particular.

Michael: So, how did you come to the point that you were sitting in on this person's meetings, or what was your role at the time that you're side-sitting under their wing into some client meetings?

Hannah: The first couple of meetings, it was literally just, “Hannah's here as a fly on the wall because she wants to learn about this business,” which was a brave thing for her to do. I mean, there's a risk when you bring anybody into the room for a client meeting. So, I sat in the meeting really with nothing to offer, but just listening. And then over time, it evolved into me finding opportunities in working with the branch clients where they could have some benefit from meeting with the CFP. And so then, it would be more of a joint meeting. The client at least knew why I was there because I had been their first point of contact. And then over time, I started sitting for exams and eventually started being able to actually participate and be an advisor of sorts in the meetings.

Michael: So, what's, I guess, the regulatory structure for this? Are you doing this as a bank employee? Was the bank also affiliated to a brokerage firm or an RIA where you're getting those licenses? How did that end up at work?

Hannah: So, yes, the bank also is affiliated with the broker-dealer. And so, at first, it was more like almost on the invitation of the client that I was sitting there. But then over time, I did get my FINRA licenses, and so I was kind of a dual employee. For a long time, I literally had 2 business cards on my desk, one for any work I was doing on behalf of the bank and the other for any of my securities work.

Michael: If you're going to have 2 hats, you can have 2 business cards.

Hannah: Sure, 2 cell phones for a while. Sure, why not?

Michael: So, I guess, what was the position you were moving into? Did the bank have a bank financial advisor position or some other role that the CFP was in and just doing CFP things in?

Hannah: They did. So, there were a couple of different positions at that company. The person I had worked with, her only focus was as an advisor, and she got paid out on a grid just as you would expect. I was in a different role where I was also a bank employee. And so, I had a salary that came from the bank. And any revenue that I got from the securities business was paid more as a bonus.

Michael: Okay. And what kind of, I guess, planning or investment securities business were you doing, were you even able to do at this point?

Hannah: Oh, goodness. It was very limited. Very, very limited. I was using asset allocation mutual funds and fixed annuities, and that was pretty much it. There was a very low limit on what type of client I could bring in. Essentially, if it was too much money, I was to pass it off to a real professional because I was new to it.

Michael: So, the limit was just in an advisor world where a lot of us have or implement minimums. You didn't have a minimum, you had a maximum.

Hannah: Correct. Exactly right.

Michael: So, where are clients coming from?

Hannah: So, clients were mostly bank referrals. Essentially as tellers or what we called people on the platform, so kind of more of the assistant manager and manager people in the branches would be meeting with bank customers. They would say, "Hey, and by the way, you should meet with Hannah." This was during the era of ultra-low interest rates. And so, often it would be people who are complaining about the rate on their bank accounts. And the easy solution was go see Hannah. It was tough because I definitely didn't feel confident in what I was doing. I knew that the tools that I had available were pretty limited. And it just as a new person, it's hard to know, are you doing the right thing? Is it meeting the need that we're trying to solve for?

Michael: So, I'm just trying to think about this in context. So, we're in a bank paying very, very low deposit rates as everybody was in the middle of the trough of interest rates. So, bank customers start grumbling about how low the yields are. An assistant manager may say like, "Well, you should go talk to Hannah." And then, you might be talking to them about a fixed annuity that at least pays...I'm trying to remember what rates were then, 2% or 3%, which is better than the 0.25%. It might have been...

Hannah: You've got it exactly right.

Michael: Might have been getting on the bank, or I guess some kind of conservative asset allocation fund if they're willing to invest a little bit in stocks.

Hannah: Yep, exactly right.

Michael: So, you said this was in the brokerage sense. You're not on an RIA running advisory accounts. So, is this A-share and C-share mutual fund business kind of stuff?

Hannah: It is.

Michael: Okay.

Hannah: Yeah.

Michael: So, as I understand it, so you do this. And what? It's going well, but it's getting boring because now the limits of having a very small shelf of options are becoming a challenge for you.

Hannah: I did it for a year with growing uneasiness that I didn't really have someone to bring me to the next level. I knew that the next level existed because I had seen it.

Michael: From the prior CFP who was more comprehensive.

Hannah: But I wasn't in a position where I had a mentor that I could look up to or new opportunities being put in front of me. It just felt as though...it was a plateau. Absolutely.

Michael: How long had this whole journey been at this point? You're the prior non-branch bank for a while, then you're at this this branch bank for a while. How many months or years in are we to the journey at this point?

Hannah: I was about 5 years in.

Michael: Okay. Okay. So, you've been in a bank environment a while at this point, having tried, it sounds like, lots of different seats because the bank supports that sort of rotation and finding this like, "Okay, sitting across from clients and helping people, this is the part that feels good more so than all the other things that we're doing."

Hannah: Exactly. I had seen the thing that really lit me up, but I felt like I was just out of reach of it where I was.

Michael: Because there's no more senior financial advisor in the branch that you can learn from at this point.

Hannah: Exactly right.

Michael: Okay. So then, where do you go next or what do you do next?

Hannah: My next step was getting in touch with as many local financial advisors as I could, as would take a meeting with me. And in that process, I met Andy. Andy was working for the competition at the time, he was working for another bank, and he was looking really for an administrative assistant. So, I knew that that wasn't what I wanted to do forever, but I also knew that he was the type of person that I wanted to learn from. We had a meeting that I will never ever forget to talk about what he was looking to build out, what I wanted for my career, and it became clear right away that this was going to be a very good fit. Both of us are really ambitious people, but at the same time, we have complementary skills. I don't mind getting lost in the details of beneficiaries and looking at what's the family tree look like, all of this, and he's going to get completely swept up into the bond market. He's going to get into the details there. So, it was really a great match. And although it was a step back, if you look at just a organizational chart, I was going down on the chart, I really felt that I had a lot to learn from him, and that he was going to support my continued growth.

Michael: So, I'm fascinated by this. So, first, you said you were reaching out to lots of advisors and then ultimately found Andy. What was the outreach? Just how literally do you do the outreach, just try to start some of these conversations on the side while you're still currently at the current bank?

Hannah: Yeah, we are in a wonderful business community where we have lots of opportunities to do that. We get to meet a lot of people, and I would say we're pretty tight-knit group. So, I was comfortable with a number of different places saying to them, "Hey, what kind of opportunities do you have at your firm?" And I was even...

Michael: Because you knew them because they were already...

Hannah: I knew them well enough.

Michael: ...customers of the bank?

Hannah: Not necessarily customers of the bank, but we might have volunteered together for the Chamber of Commerce events, or we might have kids on the same soccer team, or whatever the case may be. So, in a small town, you know who's out there. And I was also really upfront with the bank that I was concerned that I wasn't really going to be able to grow. And so, at that time in my career, I wasn't overly anxious that it would come back and somehow I'd lose my job because it was clear it wasn't the job I wanted. So, if that happened, I guess I was okay with the outcome.

Michael: Yeah, worst case scenarios, you require me to no longer do the job that I'm not actually really enjoying doing.

Hannah: Exactly. Yeah. It's an acceptable risk.

Michael: So, I don't know if you know offhand, what is Plattsburgh population? Just how big is Plattsburgh?

Hannah: So, the city itself has just about 20,000 people, but we are in an area where this is the metropolis for closer to like 100,000 people. So, yeah, the area is very spread out. It's a very big geography to have concentrated in this city center.

Michael: Okay. But the core of that city center, like 20,000-person population, so you're in a pretty small-town environment for a lot of people who know a lot of people because they are just in town and in the business community.

Hannah: Absolutely.

Michael: Okay. So, your exploration of this was kind of a personal network that had just evolved over the years and not so worried that if it doesn't work out the bank because you've already told them you're not happy and it's not a big deal to get fired from a job you don't enjoy.

Hannah: Exactly right.

How Hannah Found The Right Firm Fit To Develop As An Advisor [28:32]

Michael: Okay. So then as you started talking to advisors, how did you know Andy was the one, the right fit to take this potential leap with?

Hannah: There were 2 big indicators for me. The first was that when I told him that I wanted to be an advisor, he did not blink, he didn't say, "Well, then why are you applying for an admin job?" He didn't say, "Oh, yeah, well maybe someday." He didn't brush me off at all. So, that's the one thing is he was excited about that prospect. The other was that he was quick to admit areas that he either didn't enjoy or wasn't good at and gave me an opportunity to be the expert in those areas quickly. So, as an example, when I met Andy, his CRM was completely in his head because he was a solo operator and that was okay for a time.

Michael: It works when you're solo or at least can. It gets very problematic the minute there's a second person who doesn't know what's in your head.

Hannah: Exactly right. So, he tasked me with becoming an expert in Redtail and creating systems for him. So, he really relied on me as a partner almost from day one. I never really felt like an employee of his, and he made that clear in our interview that that was the way it would be. And that was just so markedly different from anyone else that I had spoken with. For everyone else, it was like, "Oh, well, I know you want to be an advisor, but it takes a long time to get there," almost as though they were trying to discourage me.

Michael: Or at least really ratchet down your expectations.

Hannah: Correct. And it seemed like they felt as though it would be a one-way street, that they were the advisor, and they knew everything, and so they would be teaching me, whereas Andy made sure that there was a place for both of us to add value.

Michael: I'm struck by that, that from your end, “Well, I'm okay if it's a one-way street where I just learn a lot from you because I'm literally here to get a financial advisor job to learn a lot from you.” I'm struck that part of what seems to have made it work well was that Andy had some clarity about how to actually get value from the relationship as opposed to just the fact that you were going to get to learn a lot of things.

Hannah: Yeah, I think that it set the stage for us to both really be committed to building something together from day one. From the moment that I started, the first meeting that we had was maybe an hour into my first day with a client, and he introduced me as his partner. You don't get that everywhere. I think that in a lot of places, people expect you to pay your dues and be quiet until you have something to say. But with all credit to Andy, he really was able to engage that part of me from day one, where you think about who's going to eventually make a successful advisor, it's probably somebody who wants to feel acknowledged and successful and smart all along. It's not something that shows up 5 years into your career. And so, to treat someone that way from the get-go just made a huge difference. And that's, I think, why we're still working together today.

Michael: So, can I ask…you said ultimately this was a step back, but I was willing to do it because I felt like I had a lot to learn from him. So, I'm curious, how much of a step back was this? Was it an outright salary step back as well as toward the implied title, one step back for 2 steps forward?

Hannah: It was both. So, in terms of salary, this was 10 years ago, I remember that it was a $5,000 pay cut, but it was $5,000 when I was only making like $45,000. So, definitely a salary cutback, but I was also an officer of my old bank. I had a title that was much sought after, and I went to assistant. So, it did take some consideration on my part, "Is this really going to be worth it?" At the end of the day, I just knew what I wanted to do. And when I looked at Andy and heard about how he relates with clients, kind of his philosophy behind advising, I knew this was where I wanted to be. So, you get yourself in the room with the right people and good things will happen.

Michael: And that was kind of the philosophy of taking this leap. You get yourself in the right room with good people and good stuff happens?

Hannah: Yep, that was it, as opposed to the wrong room for me at the time. It doesn't matter what the title or the salary is. If it's not the right place, then what are we doing? That's not the right place to be.

Michael: And so, did you have family or other constraints that made this, I guess, easier or more challenging from the financial perspective? I think you said originally like, "I needed to find a job when we moved across to the other side of the lake because there was a mortgage. Bills had to be paid." So, how much did finances loom overhead as you have to evaluate financial steps backwards to take steps forward?

Hannah: We absolutely had to be more careful with our money. And I remember very distinctly that I had been saving in the 401(k) at my old job, and I thought, "Well, I won't even be eligible for the 401(k) at my new job for a year, so I guess that will help with the salary cut." It wasn't as though we were now struggling to put food on the table by any means, but it did just mean that we had to be a lot more careful with where our discretionary dollars went. Again, it felt as though this is going to be worth it, and I'm going to be so busy during this next couple of years learning things that I'm okay with not being able to take an extra vacation or whatever the sacrifice is. It felt like a very good trade.

Michael: So then, tell us a little bit more about what this administrative assistant role looked like. What did you do? What job had you taken?

Hannah: Well, what it was probably originally intended to look like and what it actually looked like are probably 2 different things because Andy knew that I wanted to learn his job. For the first 6 months, I sat in every single client meeting that he had so that I'd be able to observe everything that he was doing. And then after the meeting, I would take anything that I knew how to do off his plate so that he could prepare for the next meeting. And anything that I didn't know how to do, but we had even 5 minutes, I'd ask him to teach me. And then, I would also be tasked with client reviews, getting clients on the calendar, making those touchpoints. And whenever I had any spare time, I was doing any kind of training that I could find. So, at that time, I was studying for my Series 7 license. I was also...this is kind of sidetrack here, I knew to be a CFP, I needed to have a bachelor's degree. And at the time, I had an associate's degree. So, I was also working on my bachelor's degree work, and then anything I could find from Redtail University, or from our broker-dealer at the time to get more acquainted with the industry, I was doing that.

Michael: Interesting. So, you even went back to undergrad to finish a bachelor's degree just so you could get to your CFP marks.

Hannah: Absolutely. That was really the only thing that got me through my bachelor's was knowing that I wanted so badly to be a CFP and that that was just one of the steps I had to take.

Michael: Very cool. So, how close were you? How many more credits did you have to go through to actually finish?

Hannah: I started that process sometime in 2015, and I finished in 2017, almost 2018. So, it was a good chunk of it that I still had to do. And I was able to complete it online. So, I was going to work during the day, and then I'd come home and hang with my girls who were young at the time. and have dinner, put them to bed, and go do my courses at night.

Michael: Wow. So, at this point, you are working full-time while studying and kids have entered the picture.

Hannah: Correct. It was fun times.

Michael: So, when did the girls come into the picture? How old were they at this point?

Hannah: Right. So, we first became foster parents in 2013. And the girls came to live with us in June of that year. So, when they first came, they were 17 months old and 3 years old. Yeah, so they were still definitely second grade and under while I was going through this whole process.

Michael: Okay. And so, that was just life for a few years, like work all day, sometime with the girls during dinner and bedtime routine, and then study at night for a few hours, and then repeat the next day.

Hannah: Yeah, rinse and repeat. But it always felt as though it was working towards something. So, I think that during that time, I was hyper-focused on the end result and that one day I would not have to keep working so hard to have the life that we were building.

Michael: Okay. And so, that sounds like that's what pulled it through is, "I know this is temporary. This is hard, but this is temporary because I'm excited about what I get at the end."

Hannah: Definitely. And my husband felt the same way. He was so supportive during that whole time and made sure that I had all the time that I needed and space and everything because he could see that I was passionate about it and that it was just a good fit. So, I definitely was very lucky to have family support as well.

Michael: So, how did this evolve with Andy? You started out in the administrative assistant role. So, I guess I'm trying to visualize how long you continued in that role, or did that role evolve while you were still in that role? How did this play out over the next few years while you're doing this and studying all evening?

Hannah: Right. So, it definitely evolved in the role, kind of under the surface for a long time. It went from me only being able to do very simple tasks to more and more complex. I would say that where it felt like a jump was when I started helping to input financial plans. We were using a very rudimentary system at the time, but that was when it started to get really exciting for me because it was like, "Yes, this is what I wanted to do." I really wanted to help give people clarity and security, and paperwork is great, but it doesn't do that. So, I just remember how exciting that was to start to be able to deliver that. And then, the big shift happened at the end of 2016 when Andy left the bank to start his own business, and I followed him right after. It was only a month between when he started the business and when I was right beside him. So, that was really that moment that we were on our own and independent is also the moment when I became a financial advisor and not an administrative assistant.

Michael: So, help us understand the shift. So, I guess, when did you first take the administrative assistant role?

Hannah: So, that was September of 2015. And 15 months later, we were out of the bank and on our own.

Michael: Okay. So, for the first year of this, you're still doing this in the bank environment, I guess similar to where you were previously, like the bank tellers and assistant managers give referrals and Andy gets to work with the folks as they come in, and that was still the model.

Hannah: It was, but what was really different for Andy was that he was getting a lot of client referrals as well. He had been at it for long enough and had really helped his clients to the point where I could see that a lot of the phone calls were not coming from the bank. They were coming from people who had a sister or a parent or whomever that had already worked with Andy. So, I already saw the power of referrals. I don't know that he felt the confidence in it yet, but I could see the difference.

Michael: So, what led to the decision to leave the bank? Was this still a similar challenge to what you had previously where you weren't happy with the breadth of solutions that you could use, or were there other factors driving the decision to make the change?

Hannah: So, it was really Andy's decision more than anything to leave, but it was that he wasn't allowed to run the business the way he wanted. It wasn't necessarily product-related. It was more that he couldn't do the marketing he wanted to do. He wasn't allowed to do the types of client appreciation he wanted to do. So, it was just a disagreement about where the practice could go. And ultimately, he decided that he needs to be the one making those decisions. So, we went out on our own.

Michael: So, help us understand...just again, for folks who aren't familiar with the banking background and environment, what's the limiting factor there? I'm assuming at the end of the day, they make money when Andy makes money, so they do have a financial incentive for him to market and grow, at least in general principle. So, what was the blocking point that still meant he couldn't actually grow the way that he wanted to grow?

Hannah: I think that at least in this environment, it was that the bank is really the cake and that the investment side of things was just the icing. And so, it was hard to get the ear of people who could really make those types of decisions. And at the end of the day, they also felt as though, "If we really get too out of the box with our investments, it's going to eat into our banking business. We're going to cannibalize our own deposits." So, there's a bit of a tension there, absolutely, between wealth management and banking.

Michael: Interesting. Once you hang your own shingle, it's just you hanging your own shingle to drive this.

Hannah: Correct. Yeah, we had to rely on our own connections and networks and clients to really make this work.

Michael: So, as you looked at this transition, I guess I'm curious, if you're working so closely with Andy, is there a reason you just weren't out the door the day that he left? What were you doing for the one month in between if you were Andy's administrative assistant and Andy left?

Hannah: Right. So, it was really a matter of just not knowing that I was ready to work for a small business and not a bank. There was some sense of security in working for a bigger company. And I wanted to see what he was going to set up and what came next. I didn't know what it was going to look like. I remember at the time I had very little context for what wealth management looks like in general. And I really didn't know what it looked like when it was just one guy who had only worked for a bank before going out and hanging his own shingle. So, we just had to have discussions about it. And it's tricky when you're both employees of the same company. So, we were also just being careful of our employment agreements.

Michael: Okay. But at its core, it's you had some trepidation of like, "Look, I like Andy and what he's doing and the opportunity, but let's see how this actually works when he goes and hangs his own shingle before I take the blind leap away from a known established bank that I have some confidence and credibility with."

Hannah: Exactly right. It was a big jump.

Michael: So then, I'm struck from the other end, so then it only took a couple of weeks, and you decided to make the jump. So, what changed or shifted so quickly that you were suddenly in the, "Oh, yeah, I'm in camp?"

Hannah: I think a lot of it was that I was still sitting in his office after he left. And I got to have these conversations with clients where they articulated how important he was to them, which I had thought under the surface, but just it hammered at home to hear it from clients that, "Listen, this is my trusted advisor. I don't care about this bank. The bank does not help me. It's Andy that helps me." And I think that it just made a huge difference. And just in further discussions, he was really ready to have this be a real partnership where we both were able to be authentic and do what we think is right day in and day out. Having less decision-makers in the room really lends itself to that. And so, yeah, it really didn't take very long at all before I said, "Okay, I'll take the leap. I'm in."

Michael: But I think you said when you took the leap and made the transition, you didn't join Andy as his administrative assistant, you joined as a financial advisor at this point.

Hannah: I did, which it's funny because I felt comfortable with that title in my first role. They told me I'm a financial advisor, and I said, "Okay, sure I am." After having worked with Andy for 15 months and knowing the extent to which he was helping his clients, I really felt like a charlatan saying I was a financial advisor because I knew I didn't know half as much or a quarter as much as he knew. But that was actually his insistence that I come over and be just like him, a financial advisor, and thank goodness, because I don't know that I would have ever really been ready again after that. Working with him, he almost had to be the one that said, "Okay, now you're the financial advisor."

Michael: So, how did it work once you actually land in this environment? Are you, "Okay, Hannah, now you're a financial advisor, now go get your clients the way I'm getting them," or are you working on them together, or is he transitioning some clients to you because he's getting fizzy? How did this work when you're now a financial advisor alongside Andy?

Hannah: Yeah. So, we decided right from the beginning that we were going to have a split book of business all the way through, that we really be an ensemble and offer the benefit of our differing expertise to all of our clients. And so, at first, when we were in the very tiny office that we had rented where we literally shared one desk, one side at one side and one side at the other, and our clients sat at the end of it, at first, all of our meetings were joint because there literally was not any other physical space for someone to sit in our office. And we kept that model. Really, we keep it through today. So, we've gotten busier to where we can't both sit in every meeting just because of time constraints, but all of our clients are shared. There will be times when either one of us could be meeting with a client individually and say, "At this point in the conversation, I think you should go speak with Andy or Hannah because they really have more expertise on the subject." So, it's never been a competitive environment between us. We've always had shared goals and a shared book of business.

Driving Client Growth Through Referrals [51:28]

Michael: So, where does growth and business development come from at this point?

Hannah: At this point, it is largely from client referrals. We're really blessed that our clients feel like they want to share our names often. We were doing marketing for probably the first 4 years that we were independent. And we ended up just turning it off, literally just like flipping the switch on it, not because it wasn't working, but because we felt like we had enough of a prospect funnel and new people coming in that it was kind of disingenuous to market and ask more people to come in if really we were plenty busy as it was. So, it's really mostly client referrals.

Michael: So, what was the growth funnel during those early years? What were you doing in marketing that was helping to bring a flow?

Hannah: So, I would say that the biggest thing that we did was really to have our client parties. So, we have every year since we started, except for during COVID, we would rent out a vineyard on a night like a Tuesday or Wednesday night when they wouldn't otherwise be open and invite all of our clients to come, invite them to bring friends and family, and not make a sales pitch, ever. So, it was just a fun night where people could be social with each other and get to know us in a non-threatening environment. So, we still do that, but it's really not for marketing anymore. It's just because we really love our clients. We also had a billboard truck that drove around town so that people could see where we'd gone. We had our faces on it, which is kind of mortifying for somebody who doesn't think of themselves as a self-promoter. But we needed people to know where we are and...

Michael: Oh, because you had non-solicit provisions that you couldn't call the old clients.

Hannah: Correct.

Michael: But you can have a billboard in town, and if they see it, they find their way to you. And when you're in a small-town environment, it doesn't take a long time before everyone's seen the billboard, who needed to see the billboard?

Hannah: Exactly right.

Michael: So out of curiosity…

Hannah: And in a small town it's also very cost-effective to do something like that.

Michael: I was just going to ask, because of my sheer ignorance since I've grown up in obnoxiously expensive Washington, D.C. area, what does it cost to get a billboard truck and have it drive around for a while?

Hannah: I think we might have paid like $1,000 for a whole 3 months, something like that. It was not expensive.

Michael: And the ad was basically just like your faces, so people would recognize you and a firm name and a phone number?

Hannah: Yep. You've got it.

Michael: Okay. And that was how you let former clients from the bank know that you are out there so they could hopefully find their way to you.

Hannah: Exactly. And we also found this contingent of clients who didn't deal with us before, but had met us at a sports event or at church or wherever, and they had hesitated to get in touch with us while we were working for a bank, but they were really happy to come open accounts with us when we were on our own. So, some of that is just that I think entrepreneurship is really admired and applauded in the community that we're in, but some of it is that people want to work with real people that they feel like they can get to know well and trust. And so, they had a higher level of confidence doing that when it was us running the show and not working for a bank.

Michael: Well, I'm struck by that because your comment earlier was that part of the hesitation or concern and fear was moving away from the credibility of a known established bank to who am I to hang my proverbial literal shingle and say I'm a financial advisor. So, I'm struck that not with saying that concern, it sounds like in the end, it was almost the 180-degree polar opposite effect, which was there were actually people who didn't want to work with you because you were at the bank.

Hannah: We had it all wrong.

Michael: They didn't like banks and trusted you more when you were not under the bank umbrella.

Hannah: Right, because they felt like, well, they're not going to go anywhere. They're already working for themselves. And so, yeah, there are certainly a contingent that had a greater level of trust once we were no longer employees of the bank.

Transitioning From Salary To Commission [56:22]

Michael: So, how did this work, sort of economics, income-wise, if I can ask, you were...I'm assuming in the bank world, you were an administrative assistant on salary. Now, you're coming into the firm with Andy as a fellow financial advisor. So, how did this work?

Hannah: So, that was part of what took a month for me to join him is that I was very concerned about that too. What we settled on was that for the first year, he kept paying me a salary. That was just where my comfort level was at the time. And he said, "When you're ready to be off of salary, please let me know because I think it'll be better for you in the long run. You're good at this. We're good at doing this together. I'm happy to pay you a salary, but I'll be happier for you when that goes away." And so, I only stayed on a salary for the very first year that we were in business. And then, once that year had passed, I said, "Okay, I see it. I'm ready to go." And at that point, we worked a split code. And so, he no longer paid me a salary. I got a percentage of our total production paid directly to me from the broker-dealer and the RIA. And so, that is how that worked. And again, going from salary to commission, that was a little bit of a step back for a short period of time, but I felt as though it was building up to something, and I had more ability to influence what happened next. I had more skin in the game and it was a great move for me.

Michael: So, how did you figure out what the split is in the split rep code?

Hannah: So, honestly, a lot of it was guesswork at first. We settled with a percentage that seemed fair considering his years of experience versus my years of experience and what he was able to bring in on an ongoing basis versus me who was just starting out. And from that number, we had a schedule where every year I would get an increased share just by time passing and essentially kind of like sweat equity. So, that arrangement worked for a long time. We operated like that for 4 or 5 years. But then, eventually, that was no longer logical. We had kind of reached this place where it didn't make sense. And so, I bought out the remaining percentage from him that would bring us to 50%, and that's where we sit today.

Michael: So, what changed that it didn't make sense after a while?

Hannah: So, I would say that it stopped making sense when we were looking at being a succession plan and buying other books of business. And we were really on an even playing field in terms of who was going to bring in the expertise, who was going to implement it, who had skin in the game really for these purchases, but we weren't on an even playing field with how the business was split up to that point. That's when it became like, "No, I just need to buy the remainder from you. We can't keep the schedule anymore." That's what we did, and he was very gracious to just say, "Yeah, that's what makes the most sense." He certainly could have held on to that majority stake, but we were moving forward together. And so, eventually, that had to be resolved. And I think we probably knew from the beginning that there would come that day. But I think that one of our strengths is really being able to look at what's a fair solution for now, what's a reasonable expectation for the future, and then let's be open to adjusting that as time goes on, because we know that things change.

Michael: So, if I'm understanding, there's this dynamic of, okay, there's an established book of business. It was more Andy's historically, but you're serving it increasingly on a joint basis. So, there's a payout that leans Andy's direction, but as you're carrying more of the load, it was incrementally rising each year. But when you're looking at buying a new practice going forward, you're entering that evenly, and you're going to buy into that 50-50. And so, either you have this weird world where the legacy business has 1% and the new business has a different percentage, or you just buy up to make it even.

Hannah: Exactly. And we went with option B. We felt like in the spirit of partnership and of just embracing the future together, that was going to have the least amount of friction going forward. So, yeah, we tried to keep it easy on ourselves.

Michael: So, I was going to ask, there has to be some tension that crops up in your mind or from your end of like, "Well, we are getting the 50-50 if I stay on the path that I'm on that doesn't cost me extra money to buy up to make it 50-50 now.” Paying money for it when I haven't historically, that's a mental mindset shift unto itself. So, I guess I'm just curious to hear more of what that mindset shift was like to get to the point of, "All right, I haven't had to put some money on the table before. In fact, I wanted a salary for the first year because I didn't like that level of risk," to now getting the point of, "Oh, wait, I have to write a check?"

Hannah: Yeah. I think that for me, over that time, I had really just gotten so much confidence in what we were doing and that it really is special. I had been to lots of conferences. I had spoken with lots of people, had worked with other financial advisors. And what it comes down to is that Andy and I are just really committed to doing this and doing it well and growing it. So, I think that the shift is really in how well we knew each other at that point, and I didn't want to think anymore about how much of it will I own then. It seemed to be a barrier more than it was a gift that every year it increases a little bit. So, I was just ready to be all in.

Michael: So, can I ask how do you value that? Did you literally have to go get a evaluation? Did you rule of thumb it and say that's good enough? How do you value this to try to get to a 50-50?

Hannah: Yeah. So, right from the beginning of us working as partners, we've done a biannual valuation of the business. It is nothing complicated or surgical. It's literally just 2X fees and trails and 1X everything else, minus any debt that's out there. And although we know that it's probably not as precise as a valuation can be, it's simple enough that I can do it in 15 minutes and we can be consistent with it. And so, that's always been important to us so that our spouses have it. If something happens to one or the other of us, we are each other's first buy/sell. So, we didn't want our spouses having to quibble about, "No, I think the business is worth that," when they really don't know. This isn't what they do. So, it's always been important to us to have that valuation and keep it transparent and consistent. And so, when I did buy that other stake in the business, that's what we use, that's what we've been using all along, it just seemed like the logical thing to do.

Michael: And was that at a size that you could lump sum write a check, or did you have to finance it, you have to go find a bank? Did Andy let you pay it over time?

Hannah: No. Andy held the paper on it. Yeah, Andy's holding the paper on it.

What Hannah’s Business Looks Like Today [1:04:58]

Michael: Okay. So then, help us understand the business and where it sits today.

Hannah: So, today, the 2 of us work with just about 380 households. The number is probably higher than it should be, but it does feel like a much lighter load because we do it together and we have the flexibility to either work meetings together, separate, tag team on a lot of things. And our AUM is just about $149 million, and that brings in just about $830,000 a year in revenue. The team right now is the 2 of us plus a part-time assistant who gets paid an hourly wage and is working towards becoming an advisor, hopefully following that path that I did, if that's what he feels moved to do. And then, we just had an advisor join us, who is running her own standalone practice. But she also has an avenue to do some split business with us if she so chooses. So, it's the 4 of us here.

Michael: So, is her client base part of that 380 households to $149 million of AUM, or is that just the client base that you and Andy have built and served?

Hannah: It is, but she literally joined like 2 weeks ago. And so, it's a very small sliver of that at this point. She'll work on building that out.

Michael: Okay, okay. And so, what do services and offering look like at this point? As you noted, that is a fairly high number of clients or just the sheer number of client meetings you have to get through the span of a year between you and Andy. So, what is business and service model look like at this point?

Hannah: Yeah. So, up to this point, we have really tried to be tailored to what the client themselves need. We still have some of those legacy bank clients who we’re just managing their investments. We're not talking about any of the other things that go into a holistic financial plan because that's just not what they hired us for. They're not interested. They just want to know that the investments are taken care of, which is challenging. We don't like to really operate that way, honestly, but those are legacy relationships. We have, I would say, the majority of our clients for whom we do full financial plans and also manage their assets. In that case, we're leveraging eMoney as much as possible so that clients are inputting their own data when it's appropriate and they're able to, and keeping all those links active so that we have access to good data.

And then, we have a smaller subset of people who have hired us more on a retainer where they're just paying for advice, and they manage the money themselves. So, I don't want to say it's all over the map because there is a cohesive way that we run things, but it is tailored to what a client needs and where they are in their lives. As you know, there's going to be people who want to meet with us 15 times a year because they're retiring, or they're doing their estate planning, or whatever the case may be, and we accommodate that. And then, there are times when they just need the annual review and it might be a 30-minute Zoom, or a phone call, or whatever the case may be. So, we're at capacity doing it that way, but it has been working for us to do it that way.

Michael: And so, the fact that you're feeling at capacity is also part of why you added the additional advisor then to expand capacity?

Hannah: Absolutely. Yeah, we felt as though we're close to or at the limits of our time. And so, the next step to really make an impact for the community and provide access to the advice is that we can provide a business structure for people to come in as advisors and be able to deliver services that way.

Setting Fees When Offering A Broad Range Of Service Models [1:08:09]

Michael: And then, what does the fee model look like for you guys? I think you're like you've got investment only, sort of the legacy bank clients. You've got the full-service planning and investment clients. You've got some standalone retainer clients. How are you setting fee schedules across all these different segments?

Hannah: Right. So, we have stayed consistent with any of the fee models that we already had built out. We have, I would say, over time been able to even slightly decrease them in some cases, just because all of the expenses that go along with an advisory account have gone down over time, at least for us they have. And when we bring on a new client, we start at 1% net to us for an advisory account and go down as the assets are higher. For a fee-only client where they're just getting retainer advice, we look at how much complexity they're going to present to us and quote them something from there. So, it's usually in the $2,000 range. We don't charge a ton for them in part because in this community, it feels like a lot of money when we're looking at like, "What's the national average for the service? And then, what could our clients realistically afford?" We're trying to strike a balance in the middle there. And it's just not a huge piece of our business at this point. It's a subset.

Michael: So, you had said, you started at 1% net to you. So, I guess, what other costs are in the gross that have to pull that up that you get down to the net? How does that work in your world?

Hannah: Yeah. So, for us, there's another 18 basis points that covers the platform fee for the broker-dealer and the custodian. And then, our portfolios are usually Dimensional and Vanguard, very cost-effective managers. So, there's fund fees on top of that that might get it to 1.25% total after all that's done.

Michael: Okay. So, for a lot of advisors, we have our fee in the ETFs or funds and such have their own underlying costs. Sounds like the additional layer for you is there's an investment platform fee from the broker-dealer, and you've effectively passed that through to clients as well so you can get to 1% net. So, I'm curious just how you position that to clients. At the end of the day, do you charge them 1.18...

Hannah: We do.

Michael: ...and then the portion goes up to the BD, or do they...? So, it's not like they get 2 fees, like a 1% fee and a 0.18% fee.

Hannah: No. It's all wrapped into one fee, but when we're setting our pricing, we're like, "Okay, well, let's be at 1% net and then the platform fees are on top of that." Yeah.

Michael: Out of curiosity, do you explain it that way to clients? Because I got to imagine if your fee schedule starts at 1.18%, just do people ask like, "Why not 1.16% or 1.19%?"

Hannah: Why? It's such a strange number.

Michael: Yeah, yeah, we're used to round numbers.

Hannah: When clients have asked, that's what we've said is that it's not just our fee, it's also the fee for the broker-dealer and the custodian. And so, that's how we get to that strange number and it's 1% to us. And what's funny is that I've always felt anxiety about, "Oh, we're charging too much or too little," or whatever the case may be. And when we really get into that fee discussion with clients, the reaction is usually, "That's it. That's all you're going to charge me?" So, that's something that we're constantly working on. What makes sense? Where's the fair price point in the middle?

Michael: So, now with saying all the industry debate around the proverbial 1% benchmark, at least in your community, that's not an average number. That's a low number, or at least your clients perceive that as a low number compared to whoever else they're talking to.

Hannah: Yeah. And I think that more than anything, it's once they've been working with us for a while and they understand the value that we're offering, they feel like it's low.

Using Email And Calendar Tools To Streamline Firm Workflow [1:13:38]

Michael: So then, I guess I'm still just trying to visualize maybe what a typical week looks like for you. Just how are you meeting in your way through 380 client households for you and Andy and just all the related support stuff that that crops up with that as well?

Hannah: Yeah. So, one thing that has really helped us get all this focus is using a calendar tool. It used to be when I started working as Andy's assistant that every client needs a phone call in order to set up a meeting. That would be the only way that it would happen. Now, we look to see who's due for a review or who have we tagged as needing service in this particular month because of a life event or investment event, whatever the case may be. And we send them an email through Mailchimp saying, "Please find a time that works for you on our calendar." That has cut out a lot of the back-and-forth and scheduling headaches.

Michael: Just curious, where did Mailchimp come into the picture for this? I get it. Client’s due for a review so you can send them an email for a review. I feel like a lot of us are just like open an email and put in the client's address and send them. Where did Mailchimp show up in this?

Hannah: So, what helps us with Mailchimp is that we're able to have it feel like a personalized message without having to create 18 emails. So, we'll put in the list of names and email addresses, and then they get this email saying, "Hi, Cynthia, it's time for us to meet again. Please click here." So, it's really kind of streamlined our workflow and not had it be that all 18 are in a BCC email that doesn't feel personalized. So, it kind of...

Michael: Because you're importing a list of email addresses and names so it can do the whole like, dear, insert first name. This is like your mail merge platform in the digital environment.

Hannah: Exactly. Yep.

Michael: And that's integrated to Redtail, or you just do a manual export thing?

Hannah: It's integrated with Redtail. And then, they schedule on our scheduling software, which is ScheduleOnce or OnceHub. And that appointment comes back through to our Redtail calendar as well. So, that takes a lot of the back and forth out of it completely.

Incorporating A Flex Day Into The Workweek [1:16:28]

Michael: Right. Okay. And then, how many client meetings stack up on your calendar? How many can you fit in through a week?

Hannah: I would say that most weeks we're looking at an average of about 20 between the 2 of us, and then on top of that, we might have, I don't know, anywhere from like 5 to 10 meaningful phone calls and Zooms to touch base with clients as well.

Michael: So, that's a lot of meeting time and activity. I guess 20 meetings, I think you said not necessarily joint anymore. That might be 10 for Andy, 10 for you, and a few that maybe you're both on.

Hannah: We overlap. Right.

Michael: Okay. Well, I guess you said earlier, you're feeling like you're at capacity. Is that a burnout pace for you, or is that a sustainable pace for you?

Hannah: I think that it's a sustainable pace. Even with that schedule, I'm able to take most Wednesdays off. I have that blocked on my calendar as one that cannot be scheduled upon. So, Wednesdays, I will either get a nice flex day where I can catch up on anything that didn't get done during the week, or I can go for a hike, or spend time with my kids, whatever the case may be. So, I think that we're happy with where we are now, but definitely that's capacity for us in terms of what we're able to effectively manage.

Michael: So, you've got like a version of a 4-day workweek, of like, "I work Monday, Tuesday. I'm off Wednesday. I work Thursday, Friday, and then I'm off for the weekend"?

Hannah: Yeah, I love the Wednesday flex. I call it my flex day because it just feels like nothing can really pile up too much. You're not getting all the way through the week with something that was on your to-do list on Monday, and you get to Friday at 4:00 and it's still there. So, it's worked out really well. When I'm having a week where I really need a break, I can take it without having the guilt of having to try to reschedule things and move things around. So, that's been a really nice change that definitely came because of COVID and school schedules, but we've just kept it.

Michael: So, it sounds like this is a mixture, though, of sometimes it's a flex day to do work catch up and sometimes it's a flex day for like, "I just need a personal day to hike or to be with the kids."

Hannah: Or sometimes both. Sometimes I'll work in the morning, and because nobody's coming in, I can get out in the afternoon and enjoy the sunshine.

Michael: I was going to ask like is this mostly a day off, or is this mostly a working day, just no client meetings, I can get my miscellanea done?

Hannah: I would put it in the mostly day-off category.

Michael: So, does it ever come up with clients, or even I'm just envisioning a small town, it’s like, "Aren't you supposed to be working? Why are you out on this hiking trail?"

Hannah: Right. It occasionally will come up, but I think that every time it has, it's been, "Oh, that's really great. I'm glad you do that for yourself." We haven't had anybody be upset about it. Yeah, it's really, really sweet. So, we definitely had a little bit of trepidation about keeping a schedule after the kids were back in school full-time, but it's worked out just fine. And I think that it leads to us being happier and more productive and ready for the rest of the week.

What Surprised Hannah The Most On Her Advisor Journey [1:20:00]

Michael: So, as you look back on this journey, just what's surprised you the most about this path of building an advisory business and this assistant-to-partner journey?

Hannah: I think one of the things that surprises me is that this is not the typical path. To me, it seems really logical that, of course, you would learn the business from the ground up and progress the way that the trades have. If we look historically at how one became a doctor, how one became an attorney, how one did this, historically, you would be an apprentice for a period of time, and then you'd be a journeyman and a master. That in the course of human history is a very normal path, but it's not the typical path that you see today. So, I hope that more firms will open up options like this so that people are able to join the business without the crazy instability that comes from joining as a commissioned or an advisory-based financial advisor.

Michael: I think the part that strikes me, though, I have seen a subset of firms that are trying to build more career tracks with "an entry-level salaried financial planning jobs" that do that without the, as you put it, the crazy instability of the eat-what-you-kill model at the beginning. I'm fascinated, though, you started in on an administrative path. And I don't know, right or wrong, I feel like there's a subset of people that are more negative on that path, either like, "I want to be an advisor, administrative work is beneath me, or not good enough," or they're afraid they're going to get stuck on that path and can't get over to the advisor end. So, I guess I'm fascinated or struck that that seemed to be a comfortable path for you.

Hannah: And I think a lot of why it's been successful was that I was able to be honest from day one about where I wanted to be, and that Andy on the other end of it was enthusiastic about that instead of feeling as though it was somehow a threat or that it wasn't worth hiring somebody who didn't really want to stay in that role. So, in order for this to change, it is going to take more firms who see this as a good way of building up an advisor and can be transparent from day one about what the path is, be upfront and honest about this is how long it takes to do this so that everybody can know whether they're on track or not.

Michael: I'm sorry, so my takeaway is don't be afraid to have the conversation to say, "I'm starting in an admin role, but this is not where I plan to finish. I'm trying to work towards an advisor." And if the potential hire you're talking to is not responding to that in an excited positive way, just move on.

Hannah: Move on. Exactly. Be ready for people to not be excited. Right.

Michael: And find one that does. I think that sounds cool.

Hannah: Yes, yep. Look for the green flags where people are...people who are ready to support you and who see your value as a human from day one, even if you're not an advisor yet.

Michael: I like that, look for the green flags.

The Low Point For Hannah On Her Journey [1:23:35]

Michael: So, what was the low point for you on this career journey?

Hannah: There's not ever been a crisis of like is this right or wrong? But it has felt like a slog a lot of the time. So, we already talked about when I was working full-time and finishing my bachelor's degree. There was also the period of time when I was studying for my CFP exam and coming into the office at 5:00 a.m. so that I could study for 5 hours and then join Andy at 10:00 a.m. for client meetings and then work the rest of the day and go home and do it all again. So, it's not so much that there's ever been a crisis of “Is this the right thing?” I feel very fortunate that almost from the moment that I knew that this was a real job, this is the job that I wanted, but it does take the perseverance to get through those times that require your effort and your attention, knowing that it doesn't always have to be this hard. You are working towards something that is cumulative over time.

Michael: So, I was going to ask what your perseverance lifesaver is to buoy you through that. It sounds like it is this framing of, "It's not always going to be this hard. I am building towards something."

Hannah: Yeah. And for me, when I'm working towards something that's really hard, it helps me to have this picture in my mind of what that will look like, trying to stay flexible and not have it be that it has to be exactly that, but to really have a mental image of, "What will I get on the other side of this? How am I going to feel? What is my family going to enjoy? What kind of benefit am I going to provide to the people that I work with?" Just honestly, I spent some time everyday meditating on what that would be like. And that really helped me get up at 5:00 a.m. to come study. I'm not a morning person, so for me, 5:00 a.m. is really a sacrifice because it's not hard just because life is hard, it was hard because I chose hard to get to easy later.

What Hannah Would Tell Her Younger Self And Junior Advisors [1:26:00]

Michael: So, what else do you know now you wish you could go back and tell you from 10-plus years ago?

Hannah: I think that if I was able to go back and talk to 10-plus years ago me, I would just reassure myself that I could do this and be authentic, that there wasn't a mold I had to fit into, there wasn't a certain way I had to dress or certain language I had to use to do this job. That was, I think, one of my fears early on was that you go to a conference and it's a ton of white guys in suits. It's like, "Am I going to have to try to fit into this crowd? Is that really what I'm signing myself up for? Do clients expect me to be this kind of vanilla version of myself?" And now, I know that that's not the case at all. And that actually when you're living in alignment with your authentic self, that's when people are going to be able to find you, who you should be working with, who you like as human beings, not just as clients. So, I wish I had known that earlier because I could have not worried about that for years.

Michael: So, any other advice you would give younger, newer advisors maybe coming into the profession today and trying to figure out some of these paths?

Hannah: Just that a mentor is really important. And the learning in this job happens when you're in client meetings. It's great to sit on webinars, it's great to have a financial planning degree or do any of those things, but you're really going to learn from being there during the client interactions. And that in order to earn a seat at that table, you need to make yourself useful. So, when you get done, you should be the one with the to-do list after the meeting. And if anything is over your head, of course, you'd ask for help. But take the initiative to be the one with a to-do list after a meeting. And I don't know, just be you. Everyone that joins this industry joins as a human being with their own flaws and their own philosophies and styles and all of that. And I think that that's what makes it work. It's not an impediment to it working. So, we need people who can be themselves.

What Success Means To Hannah [1:28:35]

Michael: So, as we wrap up, this is a podcast about success. And just one of the themes that always comes up is even the word success means very different things to different people. And so, you've had this wonderful career success, like literally from assistant to partner in a $150 million firm so that the business seems to be in a wonderful place now. How do you define success for yourself at this point?

Hannah: So, for me, success is that I am engaged in what I'm doing. I'm able to be really present with my family, that I'm not so overwhelmed or stressed that I'm not able to do that. So, finding that magical work-life balance, which I think is not a...it's not something that should be measured daily necessarily, but over time, and just continuing to grow as a professional and as a person. So, looking forward to the future, it's definitely narrowing the number of people that I work with and having that list be people for whom I'm uniquely qualified to work, not necessarily because of their asset level or anything like that, just because I'm the right person at the right time for them and vice versa. So, that's what success will continue to look like. But honestly, I feel really blessed in the life that I have, and I'm successful for today. Success in the future might look different, but I feel really, really happy and joyful about the life that I've built up to this point. So, just keep at it.

Michael: I love it, I love it. Thank you so much, Hannah, for joining us on the "Financial Advisor Success" podcast.

Hannah: Thank you, Michael.

Michael: Thank you.