Kitces & Carl Ep 158: Should Prospects Be Allowed To Move Forward If They Don’t Want To Think It Over First?

***Editor's Note: Can't get enough of Kitces & Carl? Neither can we, which is why we've released it as a podcast as well! Check it out on all the usual podcast platforms, including Apple Podcasts (iTunes), Spotify, and YouTube Music.

Show Notes:

• Kitces & Carl Ep 157: Reducing The Fears Of Prospective Clients By Communicating Clear Expectations Before The First Meeting
• Why The Common Approach Of “Think It Over” Might Work For Product Sales, But Undermines Service-Based Financial Planning Relationships
• The One-Page Financial Plan: Focusing Advice On What Matters Most

Kitces & Carl Transcript

Michael: Well, good afternoon, Carl.

Carl: Michael Kitces, how are you?

Michael: I'm doing well. I'm doing well. How are you as we are getting well underway for 2025 now?

Carl: Yeah, things are great. My family's healthy. Yeah, just everybody's good.

Carl's Three-Meeting Prospecting Process [0:28]

Michael: Awesome. I want to have a conversation today to challenge you on something that you said in our last episode, so this would have been two weeks ago, on reducing fear for clients or prospects, I guess when they're coming in or you send them the email or whatever it is, like here's where to park. Here's the directions. Here's the expectation of how the meetings will flow. Here's how it will end. We're just setting clear expectations, right? We won't ask or accept for any commitments from you. And just kind of setting that up. So the hair on the back of my neck stood up a little when you said...

Carl: Now, wait a second. This is kind of a crazy way to...so I don't even know what you're talking about.

Michael: I know.

Carl: I'm a little nervous about this whole thing. This is going to be really fun, so I'm ready. Let's go.

Michael: So I was feeling a little up in arms around...and I know this is going to be controversial for some folks who listen, so I'm excited to have this conversation. "No commitments will be asked for or accepted at the end of this meeting."

Carl: Well, join the list of people.

Michael: I want to make sure I understand. "So Carl, I love everything you do. This is amazing. I want to become your client." Your answer is, "No, I won't let you commit to this. You have to go home and think about it."

Carl: Okay, so this is really funny because you can join the list, that includes my wife, of people who are upset about this idea.

Michael: Fantastic. Cori and I are hanging out. Can we hang out on her beautiful couch, her beautiful blue couch?

Carl: Absolutely. 100%. Come to Utah. So you actually came, right? Yeah, we did have you here. Didn't you come to...oh, to the office?

Michael: Yes. Yeah, you had the blue couch in the office, yes.

Carl: The blue couch in the office.

Michael: I was there on the blue couch at the office. It was wonderful.

Carl: Exactly. I used to come home and she'd be like, "How did the meeting...?" You know in the early days, every single meeting, you're so excited about. I would come home and be like...and she would know, "How did the meeting go?" I would be like, "Oh, it went great." So are they new clients? I'm like, "No." She's like, "What are you talking about?" Now, I didn't follow this rule 100% of the time, because sometimes people had a time...like I'm leaving for two months. But barring that...

Michael: Okay, so, like...

Carl: ...I actually did...

Michael: ...truly really extreme circumstances.

Carl: Yeah. And keep in mind, I ran a small lifestyle focus, proud of it, small lifestyle focus. So we're not talking about hundreds of reps here. But I would tell people at the end, "Hey, this sounds great." I had plenty of people who said that. "This sounds great. How do we get started?" And I would actually say, more times than not, more times than not, but not every time, but more times than not, I would actually say...and it's so funny that that's what you want to challenge me on. I would say...

Michael: I'll ask you later what else you thought I was going to challenge.

Carl: I thought it was going to be something around some sort of spreadsheet or calculation or something, like I got some number wrong or something. But I would say, "Gosh, that's really good news. I'm excited about it too, because I really think we can make a big impact. And because it's such an important decision for both of us, I'd love for you just to sleep on it." Right. And let me actually back up. At the end of the first meeting, I would say, "No commitment asked for or accepted." And I would say, "Look, the second meeting we're going to present," and we would call it something like the client solution meeting or something. We would call it the finance...

Michael: Because you have a two-meeting sales process kind of thing.

Carl: That's where the one-page plan started. I was like, what do we call this thing? Okay, trying to tell people, "Hey, we're going to give you a..." So back up. "The goal of today's meeting is for me to clearly understand where you are today, where you want to go, and then I'm going to put...I'll get together with my team and we'll put together a plan to get you there." And whenever the word plan would come out of my mouth, I would say, "Hey, but don't worry. I'm not talking about a two-inch thick book. I'll try to keep it to one page, kind of executive summary. And I'm going to give you that in the second meeting." So that first meeting, no commitment asked for, that's how that was handled.

But it was in the second meeting. I didn't accept commitments in the second meeting either. I would say, "I'd like you to take this home, review it with anybody you want. If you have a CPA, an attorney, your mother-in-law, if you have other financial planners you're thinking of seeing, please go see them. I want you to go see them because I really don't want you to have to rethink this decision because I'm hoping you're going to be a client for a long time. But from my perspective, I think we can add a lot. I think we can be really helpful here. So why don't you take this home and..." No, no, Carl, I already know...at the end of that second meeting, occasionally I would say, "Okay, well, here's how we get started. We schedule...at least think about this. We'll schedule our third meeting," which we creatively called, I think John Bowen was the one that came up with this name, the mutual commitment meeting, right? Really creatively titled that. "And at that meeting, we'll sign documents to move..." And we tried not to use the word, and I think John taught me this too, we tried not to use the word execute. We'll sign documents to start the process of moving forward.

Michael: Because we just don't want to bring up executions.

Carl: Yeah. Yeah. It just seems like a bad word. So we didn't have those documents ready at the end of the second meeting. Who would be so presumptuous? So we would say, "No, go away. Go see all the other planners. Check this out. Here's your one-page plan. Give it some thought. I'll check in with you in a day or two and we'll schedule this mutual commitment meeting." And at that meeting, we'll have all the documents ready for us to start our relationship. Now that's overkill. I know it's overkill. I'm not even suggesting it. I'm just saying I enjoyed it. And it worked.

The Benefits (To Clients And Planners) Of "Thinking It Over" [06:45]

Michael: Why? It's like, for the client that says, "Carl, this sounds amazing and you're wonderful, how do we get started?" This is a genuine question. Why? What are you trying to solve for by not allowing them to proceed in that moment? Help me understand that.

Carl: Yeah. So we should clarify something. We should clarify something. So the end of the...where this question came from, from you, was the end of the first meeting. I think I've now probably solved that question. Right? There's no commitment asked for or accepted in the first meeting because I haven't even presented the solutions to you yet. Right? So the only commitment I'm going to ask, the only commitment we have to decide on at the end of the first meeting is should we meet again? Now, at the end of the second meeting, when I presented to you this one-page plan, again, really high level, it doesn't say, "We'll buy two..." It might say, "Let's figure out the appropriate amount of life insurance." It's not going to say, "Buy $2 million, a 20-year term." Right? One-page plan, we don't need to review that here. Everybody gets all fired up about, aren't you giving...No, it's just broad level. At the end of that meeting, if somebody's like, "This looks great," I often said, "Go home and think about it." But if they were like, "Carl, this looks great. I don't need to think about it. What's the commitment?" Well, let's schedule the third meeting and we'll have all the documents ready.

Michael: You're still not actually letting them commit at this point.

Carl: Well, because you don't have...what are you going to do? Call everybody in and say...Okay, maybe we sign a statement of work or the advice agreement. That's fine. But I don't have ACAT transfer forms and account documents ready.

Michael: Well, all right. Fair enough. Oh, and I guess they're...Well, so I guess, let me frame it to you this, because I know you were doing this somewhere years ago where often we actually still had to bring in paper forms. It's a fair thing.

Carl: It's true. Things have changed in 15 years.

Michael: For those who have been in the business less than seven to ten years...

Carl: You can press a button now.

Michael: ...the stack of paperwork with the stickies, that legitimately took time to prep. So, I guess in an eSign world, where this could be like, "Hey, if you're ready to go, our team can queue this up in the email. The Docusigns will be in your email inbox by the time you get home," would you...

Carl: Yeah, let's talk about that.

Michael: ...would you still be in this camp where I have to do the third meeting for mutual commitment or...

Carl: No, let's go back to your question. Your question is why?

Michael: Yeah, what is this solving for?

Carl: And so, if we get the why, I really think at this point in the relationship with a client, the why should be the client comfort. So, if a client is saying...it would be kind of silly. It'd be kind of silly to put up another hurdle or barrier. So when I did that, I think that's kind of silly. I think that's kind of a silly idea. But if the client still got their hands on their wallets, right, still want...I want to encourage that.

Michael: Oh, no question. If the client's not ready, the client's not ready. This is not a pushing the client who's a little bit reticent, like, "Come on, it's just an easy signature." I'm all the way at the other end of the extreme, which is they're like, "Carl, it's awesome."

Carl: Yeah, I think you say, "Sign here."

Michael: "Let's go. I don't need the second meeting."

Carl: No, I agree. I agree. I agree.

Michael: "I am so convinced that you are a brilliant financial..."

Carl: Wait, wait, wait. Are you saying this at the end of the first meeting or the second?

Michael: I'm bringing it to you in the first. What's up?

Carl: Nah, that one, I'm going to...that one, you go...I haven't given you...we don't even know...I haven't even had time. So here's the why for that one.

Michael: We got to know each other. We've determined we're a good fit. And I am confident that your solutions will be good. You don't need to prove to me your solutions are going to be good. Seriously.

Carl: Yeah, no, I'm serious too. I think there would be situations in which I would have had enough information. But remember, this is a mutual decision. I'm operating from the perspective of, I've only got 100 seats, brother. 67 of these are full. If I'm going to give you seat number 68, I'm going to think about it. Now, that's not the language that I'm going to use necessarily.

Michael: So that's fair. So could you come out of a meeting and decide, I don't even really want this second meeting because I'm actually not happy with how they showed up in the first?

Carl: A hundred...yeah, for sure. That happened numerous times where I was like, "You know what, I don't think we can add enough value that this is a good place." Or this person's...last thing I want to do is...we all know this. I spent plenty of time...

Michael: If I don't want them because they're terrible in the first meeting, I get that. But I know that in the first meeting. This is a graceful rejection is different than, no, no, you want a sign, I'm just not allowing you to do this...

Carl: Yeah, I think there's something really...I think between the first and...And again, I'm 100% okay with being wrong about this because there's a million ways to do this. If I was doing this again...

Michael: I know this is a widely debated issue, that's why I wanted to hear this.

Carl: Yeah, if I was building a firm again, I would do this. At the end of the first meeting, I would say, "Great, we have everything we need to put together. I clearly understand where you are today. I clearly understand where you want to go, or I have a good guess of where you want to go. I'm going to put together a plan. Don't worry. I'll keep it to one page. Give me seven to ten days. Look, even that, I'm going to have it done tomorrow. Give me seven to ten days." Part of this is theater. And I want you to understand, I want to be clear. The theater is not for me. Two things have to happen for the client to feel really good about this relationship. One, they have to feel thoroughly diagnosed...sorry, they have to be thoroughly diagnosed. But number two, they have to feel thoroughly diagnosed. And because we're so good at pattern matching, we may have thoroughly diagnosed in 45 seconds. We may be like, this is going to be a great relationship. But the client hasn't had a chance to feel that yet. And so part of this is a little theater. So, "Hey, give me seven to ten days. I'll have this, we'll have gone through it together. We'll put together a plan. I want to present that plan to you. And at the end of that meeting, we can decide whether to move forward." I'd still do that.

The Potential Shortfalls Of An Elongated Prospecting Process [13:01]

Michael: So in your process, after they decide to move forward, is there like a follow-on further planning process? Now we're going even deeper to the next level? Or are you essentially done with your planning process? Because you cover it in the prospect phase to get them on board as a client in the first place. So it's like different advisors do different things.

Carl: No. Lots of deeper.

Michael: Lots of deeper. Okay.

Carl: So consider, let's just run through a quick example. Let's just say that in the first meeting, one of the things that comes up is, "Hey, we just went on our first...we just scheduled our first trip without the kids. And we realized we don't have life insurance. So we're going out of the country. That's keeping us up at night." Okay. And it could be an asset allocation thing. So in the second meeting, in the plan presentation, it wouldn't say, "Buy two year..." All I have there is, "Address life insurance." That's what it says on the goals section of the first...it doesn't even say...I didn't spend the time to even figure out it's two million of 20-year term, right? It could be asset allocation, get investments allocated to reach goals, like that level. So then, once client signs on, I haven't done a lot of work. I've done some, but it's really a clarifying document. It's like first principles level. Once client signs on, we say, "Okay, great. Let's schedule the life insurance planning. Okay. Here's the more information I need. Okay. Turns out this is the best solution for you. Turns out we went out and got bids from three different places for 20-year term. This is the best one. Come on in, we'll sign it. Or here's the eSign or whatever. Hey, let's have an asset allocate...let's have an investment plan meeting. Let us walk you through how we invest the money. Generally speaking, here's our process. Here's how it applies to you." No, there's a lot more planning to do after a one-page plan. Does that make sense?

Michael: Yeah. It's like, so if they're ready to go, why can't you just let them...

Carl: After the first meeting?

Michael: Yeah. Let them say yes and get right into the super deep, awesome planning you want to do.

Carl: Because I don't think we're at a spot where we have clear expectations of what we're really doing at the end of 90 minutes. Now, again, I'm open to being...I know there are people who do this differently and do it better than me. Go keep doing it. I'm not suggesting anybody change. But for me, going back, we used to record the meetings, looking at the notes, sitting down with a paraplanner, say, "Okay, what do you see here? What do I see here? Okay, great. Let's create a one-page plan, which to me is just a statement of financial purpose, a set of stated goals ordered in riskiness or level of importance, right? Next 90 days action, here's the two or three things we want to do next. Here's how much it might cost to work with us." That's all that is. One-page plan is not even the right term for it. It's a clarifying document, but I loved the term one-page plan. So we present that. That gives us like, are we on the same page in terms of what I heard last time, what you heard, are expectations clear. That's all we're doing with that. We haven't had...we all know situations. This is why lawyers are around where people heard different things. So this is just an opportunity to clarify. And again, I had 78 clients when I sold the business. You know what I mean? It's exactly what I billed again. So every one of them, I wanted to like, are we on? I had too many...

Michael: You weren't trying to have hundreds and hundreds of clients where your...

Carl: I want to make sure these are...

Michael: ...you wanted to be selective.

Carl: Yeah. I had made the mistake, which many of the people listening will relate to, of chasing somebody for two or three years, only to spend a decade regretting that I got them as a client. And one of them was my biggest client ever that I had to fire. And it took two years off my life. So I do think there's something nice about saying, "Hey, are we on the same page? Okay, cool. Can we take two meetings to do that?" You know what I mean? Now at the end of the second meeting, that idea of making them go show people, I get it. That's probably a little overkill. But at the end of the first meeting, I still feel pretty good about it. Are you okay with that? Are you going to at least be okay?

Michael: I'm struggling.

Carl: That's fine. That's fine.

Michael: So I get the idea that I've got limited seats on the bus and I really, really want to make sure this is a good-fit client. Because look, it's so much easier to just not take them as a client than it is to take them and have an "oh blank" moment later when you realize that you need to fire them and separate this relationship. Right? Just it's stressful to part and separate from clients when we initiated and let them go. So for someone who's in a position of I'm trying to be extremely selective about the clients that I work with and I'm not sure that it's the right client for me after the first meeting, I get it. Because that's literally my decision. Do I want to take this person on as a client? And if my screening filter threshold is that high and I just really can't make the determination in a meeting, then take two meetings. Because if that's what you need for you to feel good about taking this client into your limited roster. I get that. That's for me, not the clients. But I don't mean that in a bad way. If I'm trying to protect my capacity and my ability to serve my clients well and that's what I need to be the best me as a financial advisor for the clients that I allow onto the bus, I get that. That resonates for me, if that's your client selectivity circumstance. I think my challenge to this, not trying to challenge you, just I feel a challenge.

Carl: No, I love it, please. I love challenge.

Michael: Most people don't come see us on a whim.

Carl: It's true.

Michael: They come see us because they're in pain, bad stuff's going on. Because you got to come to us and we cost a lot of fees and you have to talk about money things that no one talks about. We're not an easy meeting and engagement and outreach. And heaven forbid they have to do this with multiple different advisors at once and go through the torture of talking about their situation to multiple strangers just to find one that they feel like they can trust. This is really hard for most prospects to do. And if someone manages to build up all the courage to finally deal with that financial stuff that they've been putting off for one, two, three, five, seven, ten years and they finally made it to my office and they finally had a good meeting and they finally have said, "I'm ready to do it. This is my moment. I'm going to do it." And you're like, "Oh, no, no, no. Why don't you go hang out for a while and sit on it and think about it?" It's the end. If you're trying to help someone go through behavior change, it's the worst possible way to help them actually change their behavior. They spent so much effort trying to build up to get to the point where they're ready to change their habit. And like, yeah, but why don't you stay in your current habits a little bit longer and then we'll revisit this.

Carl: Hey, Michael.

Michael: It takes...

Carl: Do you have more? I want you to get it all out. Get it all out.

Michael: It takes...in the purest sense. It takes their choice and agency away to say how they want to engage, it's meaningful for them and saying, "No, no, no, you have to go through my process, my way, if you want to have the privilege of being my client, even if you so find me credible and trustworthy after the first meeting and so believe my process is going to be great, that you are ready to engage right now, because you trust because Carl is such a fantastic communicator that I'm sold after the first meeting, and I'm not allowed to do it because I have to go through your process instead of what I need as a client." That's when I start processing. Now, if you're doing that because your process is, I'm trying to figure out whether you're a client I want to let onto my scarce seats of the bus, I actually get it there. There really is a, yes, as the planner, there's a part of this process that I need for me to make sure this is the right mutual fit. Not all of us have that level of screening criteria, but some of us do. And I pound the drum a lot about being selective about who you take as a client. So I'm not going to fault anyone for having selective criteria, even to the point that you need two meetings, if that's really why you need it.

But to me, just you're taking away someone's agency at the exact moment that they were finally ready to deal with what are usually really hard money things for most people to deal with. And to me, just it feels really negatively disempowering to a client to say, "You can't actually choose whether to hire me and trust me, even though you already said you trust me and you're ready to hire me."

Carl: Yeah, that's why...

Michael: That's why the hair went up on the back of my neck when you said...

Carl: I know. I love this.

Michael: ...in our last one, even, as you said, part of this is theater for them, right? Because we're trying to establish a relationship and trust, which again, I respect the theater of it. You already won the trust game. You had them with the theater of the first meeting.

How To Diplomatically Ask Prospects To "Think It Over" (Even If They're Ready To Sign) [22:30]

Carl: No, this is smart. So one thing that's maybe...one thing I think is clear, I think is clear to me is that I need to try one more time to communicate the benefit to the client. Let me try one more time. Because what you're raising is, look, super smart and really thoughtful. So let's make sure we understand where we're at. So client comes in for first meeting, they overcome all that icky stuff we talked about. Right. You do this beautiful first meeting where you don't do the all the icky stuff that you may have been taught to do, this amazing thing. At the end of the meeting, you're pretty clear. You're like, wow, in your mind, you're thinking, "Wow, I really enjoy these people. They're great people. The problem they have looks like something I could solve, even what I've heard so far." They're thinking, "Wow, I really like this advisor. They've asked really good questions. I really think they could help."

And so what I'm suggesting at that spot is maybe the solution here, let me just try this on, is to say, "Hey, I've really enjoyed our first meeting today. I really enjoyed getting to know you, what brought you in. And it's clear to me you've made some really good decisions with money. And I think we can be really helpful. What we do here, now it's just a function of making small tweaks around the edges and then doing it for a couple decades. And it's exactly what we do. I think I'd really enjoy..." I used to say this a lot in the second or third meeting, but I could see you saying it in the first meeting. "I think I'd really enjoy working with you. And I think we could really be helpful. So what if we did this? I'll put together a plan so that we can make sure we're on the same page. Let's move forward. I'll put together a plan to make sure we're on the same page. And I'll have that ready in three to five days. Can you come back in three to five days and let's review that together to make sure we're on the same page. And I'll have all the documents ready. If at the end of that review, we still feel the way we feel right now, I'll have all the documents ready and we'll get started. Let's get started knocking these problems off." How does that feel?

Michael: That feels a little better. That feels a little better. Look, the thing I have...so there's two things to me that jump around that. One is I'm putting myself in client shoes. I still feel like we have forward momentum. I want to move forward. We have forward momentum. We're getting to the next step. You're going to present a thing. We're going to sign paperwork. As far as I'm concerned, we're now in the client process, which starts with a meeting where you sign paperwork, can you tell me some things? A, I feel the forward momentum and B, just I feel like I'm in a process. You're not telling me, "You think you want to work with me, but you're probably wrong and you should go check because..."

Carl: Can I stop you?

Michael: "...apparently you're like an impulsive person who can't make good decisions."

Carl: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Because that's where I must have miscommunicated and I want to make sure this is clear. That's where I must have miscommunicated. I'm not suggesting you misunderstood. I'm suggesting I must have miscommunicated. If I communicated that I would say, "Well, sounds like you really want to work with me. But you know what? You have to go home and think about it."

Michael: Because there are a lot of advisors that do this and say this...

Carl: Okay.

Michael: ...or maybe I over-projected because I know a lot of folks that do.

Carl: You know what? I'm sure there are people who have built really successful businesses doing things that way and who am I to tell them they don't know what they're doing? I want to make sure it's clear. I didn't mean to communicate that. What I meant to communicate was closer to this where we are now, which is, "Hey, this feels really good. I think we could be really valuable in your life. You've done a lot of great work and we could be really helpful. Let's do this. Give me some time to huddle with my team, put together this plan and think of it as a clarifying document. We call it a one-page plan. Let's come back and review it and if we're still on the same page at the end of that meeting, we'll have all the documents ready to exit." I can see that. That's closer to where I wanted to communicate. If it came across as if I was folding my arms in a smug way and saying, "Go home and think about it, young lad," that's not what I meant.

Michael: Okay. That does help...

Carl: How's that?

Michael: ...because again, I know a lot of advisors that have some version of that, because we've all been hard-sold in our own lives in various way, it's pretty hard to dodge it in modern society. And so, I do feel like there's been this almost countertrend reaction of, well, I want to be so blatantly clear that I'm not one of those pushy people that I'm going to proudly tell you you're not even allowed...I'm so not a salesman, you are barred from signing up with me...which is why I got thrown when you said even in your pre-meeting expectations document, no commitments will be asked for or accepted.

Carl: I still stand by that, but yeah, I can see how that needs to be softened. I could see how that could be worded better.

Michael: Because I struggle with... to me there's a difference between, "Look, I've got a process that's multi-meeting." Cool. Most of us have multi-meeting processes. I'm not talking to you in the first half of the meeting and delivering your financial plan on the second half of the meeting. We all have multi-meeting processes. Some of us at least have varying levels of how much we screen and filter clients, and so I've got nothing negative with the idea of, hey, if I, as the advisor, need a second meeting to make sure this is really a good fit, because I'd rather get clear up front than take you on and have to let you go later because I realized I made a mistake, sure. I think we need to admit that I'm doing that for me. I'm not doing that for the client. I'm doing that for me because I need to be comfortable. This is a mutually beneficial relationship, but there are two parties to this relationship. So if that's what I need, I'm allowed to take that time as much as my client is entitled to take time if they don't want to sign after the first meeting and have a hard sell.

But I really struggle when it gets down to...so I'm basically going to tell the client that they're not permitted to make grown-up decisions on the spot. Because I'd so rather appear that I'm the anti-salesman than allow them...just the agency to make a decision. Maybe I'm over-projecting this, but...

Carl: You know me well enough to know that that is definitely not what I was communicating. So there's a line here that I want to be really clear about. One is, I do think that we're not, after one meeting, without some clarifying document, we want to make sure we're on the same page in terms of what we're agreeing about. Have we clarified the problem right? I think that's important. I think the theater of allowing the client to know this involves a little bit of work is important. I'll stand by that. Now the level of that. I'm not trying to play games here. We don't play games with people's lives and we don't...and all of this should be in the service of the client. If it crosses the line and becomes in service of my ego or in service of my smugness...

Michael: In service of my desire to clearly filter whether this person is a good fit. To me, that's a very valid service of myself.

Carl: Agreed. But I also think...

Michael: I also think that's what's really going on.

Carl: ...by the way, I think that's also in service, in a very important way, that's in service of the client.

Michael: Yes, taking them on, starting to work and saying, "Oh, sorry, this isn't working. Let's fire you in six months" is not good.

Carl: Totally. But the other approach, we've already, ad nauseam, we've gotten to the point where a client really wants to move forward. We think it's a great relationship. Now what I think the process was designed to do, the way I engaged in, if I didn't communicate clearly, totally understand. But the way I engaged in it is, "Hey, let's make sure we're on the same page. Here's what I heard in the first meeting. Did I get this right? Were these really your goals? Is this really your concerns? Did I get this right? Because we can help with these things." Oh, yeah, you got them right. Or, you know what, Carl? Actually, no. We totally missed this thing. I have a bunch of stock options. Oh, I don't know anything about stock options. Let me get you some help. That's all I'm saying. So I think the wording can become more clear of I still stand by. Hey, at the end of this first meeting, here's maybe a way you could word it. I worded it exactly the way I said. At the end of this first meeting, there will be no commitment asked for or accepted. But you could word it, "Hey, at the end of this meeting, the only commitment we're going to make is whether we should have a second meeting to decide to work together."

Michael: Sure. And if someone gets to the first meeting, is like, "I don't even need a second one..."

Carl: Great. Or I don't want it.

Michael: ...or I trust you. I value what you do. I believe your process is going to be effective. So I'm literally just ready to get started. Can we just move forward because I'm ready to make a mental commitment and I need to check this off my mental box, because I got other things to do in my life besides come back for your meeting, your second meeting that I didn't want to have that apparently I still have to...

Carl: Look, I don't know. We're talking about at the end of 90 minutes. At the end of 90 minutes, all I have is I've gathered information. I haven't had a chance to put together, here's what I think we're agreeing to.

Michael: I know. I think you're going to be so good at it. I'll pay you for that.

Carl: Amazing.

Michael: I'm ready to pay you now.

Carl: Amazing. So here, let's do this. Let's schedule our second meeting and in that second meeting, I'll have a clarifying document there. We call it a one-page plan. And if we're still in the same page at the end of that, it'll take us about 20 minutes, we'll have all the documents ready to get started. How does that sound? We'll be ready in three days.

Michael: Cool. That works.

Carl: Okay. Love that. Love that.

Michael: That works. I'm moving forward in the process. And I feel like I need to clarify as well. I'm assuming in all of this, we're not pushing them. We're not hard closing. We're not even soft closing.

Carl: No, no, no. We've been clear about that.

Michael: To me, if that's your thing, that's one thing. I'm talking about the scenario here of you're not trying to solve at the end of the meaning. If your default is that you don't ask for a commitment, you let them go home and sleep on it. If that's your thing, cool. I'm just talking about the scenario where you don't ask for a commitment and they say, "I'm ready to get going," which is why it was the...or I don't have any problem with the no commitments will be asked for part. I get stuck on the or accepted.

Carl: Accepted. Fair enough. Fair enough.

Michael: Or accepted. I'll be curious to see what kind of feedback we get because I know advisors are out there on both sides of this. So [email protected], [email protected]. If you want to sound off to us on where you are on this spectrum of do you let the client...if you're a think-it-over, I-don't-ask-for-a-commitment person, advisor, do you let them move forward if they want to, or do you require them to go home and think it over, even if they were ready, even if they said they were ready.

Carl: Perfect. Michael. Thank you.

Michael: Awesome. Thank you, Carl.

Carl: Okay, cheers.