Kitces & Carl Ep 141: Creating The Space To Have More Meaningful Money Conversations With Clients

***Editor's Note: Can't get enough of Kitces & Carl? Neither can we, which is why we've released it as a podcast as well! Check it out on all the usual podcast platforms, including Apple Podcasts (iTunes), Spotify, and Stitcher.

Show Notes

• Kitces & Carl Ep 127: Creating Value Through Presence (And The 50 Fires Podcast)
• Optimal Design Of A Financial Advisor’s Office: Insights from the Financial Planning Performance Lab
• 50 Fires: Money and Meaning with Carl Richards
• Krista Tippett
• Howard Stern
• Terry Gross
• George Kinder
• Embracing Uncertainty with Cattle Rancher Elizabeth Poett
• The Ranch Table
• The Amen Effect by Rabbi Sharon
• Why To Use George Kinder’s 3 Life Planning Questions With Financial Planning Clients

Kitces & Carl Transcript

Michael: Well, hello there, Carl.

Carl: Greetings, Michael Kitces. How are you?

Michael: I'm doing well, DCR3. I'm just going to keep running with... It's a good call sign, DCR3.

Carl: Yeah. I want to change my name to some studio name, like Roman or something. But right now, it'll be DCR3. That's perfect.

The Most Important Ingredient For Meaningful Money Conversations [00:34]

Michael: All right. I'm sticking with DCR 3. I'm sticking with DCR3. So, for today's discussion, DCR3, you've been doing this really cool podcast lately, "50 Fires," interviewing fascinating cool people and asking them all these...which to me are really interesting money questions, life questions, questions at the intersection of life and money. And I feel like in some ways that's been this gift you've had for many, many years, all the years that you've been doing the financial advising work that you've been doing and speaking about it in various contexts.

But I feel like now that, I don't know, you have this fresh opportunity to refine your questions, hone your question game, I would love today to hear what are your leading questions now, your best questions, your top questions. Maybe I'm imagining this in my head, but you've tried a bajillion questions on a bajillion people because you're you and this is what you do that you have to be down to this short list, and I don't know what it is, the 4 questions, the 6 questions, the 10 questions that you love because they create meaningful conversations about money that fits for what we do as advisors. So, I was hoping for our conversation today to hear, I guess, you tell me how many it is, what are the 6 Magic Carl Questions at this point that you've learned and found over your years of collective wisdom.

Carl: Well, first of all, that's so nice of you to ask, and the kind words mixed in there are so nice. It's been fascinating to me. And one thing I want to sort of make clear is I'm learning that the question is important, but it's not as important, I don't know if that's the right word. It's equally important to create the kind of space where these sorts of questions can be talked about. So, the follow-up and the pause, and the way the questions are asked is almost as equally as important as the question. Because I've found that some of the very...for "50 Fires," for example, Elizabeth Poett who has a TV show, I think it's called "The Ranch Table" or something. And she's a, I don't know, 4th, 5th, 6th generation farmer outside of Santa Barbara. Their family got the land in the settlement with Mexico. This is going way back.

And it's thousands of acres right outside of Santa Barbara. So, they've had some really interesting experiences with money, but I remember asking her, I said something like, "Hey, this is a really clumsy question." And then I asked them a question about, "How have you dealt with showing up at the farmer's market and having all this money, but being a farmer," and it was really around being really land rich, dirt rich, but cash poor. And it was a terribly clumsy question, but I just said, like, "This is a really clumsy question." And it totally worked. And it wasn't a trick. It wasn't a strategy. When I say it worked, I just mean we can have really clumsy questions if our intent is okay.

And so, I think that's where I would maybe start with this idea of let's talk about the questions but realize that if your goal is just real curiosity, then finding the perfect question or being the best at asking it isn't as important as the feeling of curiosity. And you can really foster that. You can practice it. I wasn't particularly good at it 10 years ago, 15 years ago. Now I feel like I'm a little better, and I've got a ways to go. I listened to somebody like Howard Stern, Krista Tippett, or Terry Gross. And I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, they're..." So, it's something that you can practice. So, does that make sense? And then I'll talk about some questions.

How Can Advicers Create The Space To Have Deeper Conversations [05:07]

Michael: It does. But now my curiosity comes up. But now I'm just stuck on this track of what you're framing up here. Because there are some powerful things to me in what you just said there. The first, at least, that jumps out to me is that it's not just the questions you're asking, it's whether and how you're creating the space where the questions can be asked. And I hear that, and my mind goes to all the advisors that I've talked to over the years who say something the effect of, "I'd really like to get into these deeper questions," we call the George Kinder life planning style questions or maybe literally George Kinder's life planning questions. They say something to the effect of, but I feel like that's going to be awkward, I feel like that's going to be too forward with my clients, which I now connect back directly to what you've just said of, well, are we even creating the space to make those comfortable, acceptable normal questions to ask, or what should we be doing that we're not doing to set up that space and environment in the first place?

Carl: Yeah. And I have such deep empathy for that sentiment, and I've heard the same thing, doubt, I'm sure, thousands of times at this point, and I've felt the same thing hundreds of times. I don't know how to express this that it doesn't sound a little sentimental or full of hyperbole. When I said to Elizabeth Poett, and you can hear me say it on the podcast episode, "Hey, this is really clumsy." And "it worked" in the sense it was okay. And it led to... I was like, "Oh, my gosh." And I've since done that with my conversations with friends or with kids. Just like, "Man, I don't know how to ask this question. It feels really clumsy to me." I'm not even really sure what the question is. Lots of my questions on "50 Fires" are not questions. I will say something, like... We recorded an episode today, and I was... This is somebody who's got their Masters of Divinity from Duke Divinity School. And I really wanted to ask about the prosperity gospel. They came from a really, really, really poor background. At age 4, her dad trained her to cut up marijuana and put it in the appropriate weights in different bags.

So, at age 4, she was living in a trailer park. Fast forward, Duke Divinity School. I was super curious about the juxtaposition of deep poverty, Duke Divinity School, the prosperity gospel. And I literally said something kind of like that and then it was like, "Tell me what you make of that." I think permission is granted to folks who have this beautiful desire. And that's what I take from that question you're getting asked so often, and I am too. It's just this beautiful desire for human connection, and don't really know how to do it because money has always been in the math department. And you talk about money in places with pillars and columns and with people with suits and ties on. You know what I mean? It's very formal.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a pretty reasonable illustration for a lot of our industry.

Carl: Yeah. And then you have, I think it was K-state. I think you did the big write-up on what the office space should look like.

Michael: Yep.

Carl: They did that study. Yeah. And that study comes out and says something more like a coffee shop or a high-end architect. Well, what's the point of that? Well, the point is can we create the kind of space where you can maybe be open to a slightly different kind of conversation, lower the anxiety level? And then I think you can... Independent of the physical space, I wasn't really referencing a physical space. I was referencing more just the presence you can bring and the sense of curiosity and spaciousness, and it's okay to be clumsy to fumble around. We don't know. I think this is particularly useful with financial planners and their spouses or partners because I'm finding that most of us haven't had these conversations with our spouses.

I recorded an episode with my wife, Cora. We've been married almost 30 years. I learned something live on the episode that I did not know. I had made an assumption for 20-plus years about how she felt about money and she told me on the episode, "Carl, you're wrong." Well, that's amazing and beautiful. And so, I think permission granted to all the advisors or advicers out there to go home and ask some of these questions that we might get into in your own space and say something like, "I can't believe I said this," because I also had one of my daughters on and I said like, "Lindsay, I can't believe we haven't ever had this conversation. I'm so excited to have it. Let me ask you this." So, creating that kind of space.

What Advicers Can Do Physically To Create An Environment Where Clients Can Open Up [10:45]

Michael: All right. So, a few things still coming to mind. So now maybe I'm reading it too literally, although you just made a couple of comments around it. Do we need to think more about literally the physical space?

Carl: Yeah. I totally think we do. And I think that's... Do I have that right? I may have been telling the wrong story, but it's K-state, their study, and it really was pointing closer to high-end architect coffee shop therapist office, something closer to that.

Michael: Yes. Yeah. This was a John Grable study originally, and it was essentially traditional advisor setup is usually big desk, maybe L-shaped. I sit behind my desk. There are 2 chairs on the other side of the desk for my 2 clients, and then maybe I've got a computer with a swivel monitor so I can turn it, I can share it to you, we can look down the length of the table together. But there's the big table, it conveys strength and stolidity and stability, and all those great things that come from a big table. And we're on one side and they're on the other.

And the research-driven version of this was essentially, you're sitting in a chair across from 2 small chairs, and either you sit on the big chair and clients sit on the small chairs, or you sit on one of the small chairs and clients sit together on a loveseat, and there's just a low coffee table. And it's sort of literally a much more intimate space. I think part of the story that they tell on that is almost literally that big table that we tend to put in place is literally a physical divide between us and the clients and it goes better when you remove the divide between you and the client. I guess I'm just curious to hear more from your perspective. How do you do that? How should we be thinking about how we're trying to create? I think you said create and hold the space.

Carl: Yeah. So, let's just cover physically. I happen to believe, having read that study years ago, probably your write-up on that study years ago, that the whole goal of that, and I'm sure that all comes from the research around coaching and therapy is I want you to feel when you walk into this space, this is going to be a different conversation. And largely, I'm trying to lower the fight or flight that you're feeling because when you signed up to talk to anyone about money, you're going to have your hand on your wallet, you know what I mean? You're protective, and then I'm going to stick a barrier between the two of us with a big desk.

So, all of that, we're just trying to lower the anxiety level right from the beginning. Think of how you feel when you walk into your favorite coffee shop on a Saturday morning. So, it's not quite a weekday rush, but Saturday morning, or maybe even in the mountains, there's some coffee shops with a fireplace. Think of the difference between that feeling and walking into the bank or the used car sales manager's office. We're just trying to get close to one. My favorite metaphor really is because I can feel the coffee shop thing being a stretch too far for most of us, I love high-end architect like, "Oh, there's a blank slate here." A blank whiteboard. You have no preset agenda. You're not going to be pitching me things from across the desk.

All of that, you just think through anything I can do to lower the stakes for you in terms of the anxiety. Like tea is nice. Take a seat. Everything comfortable, relaxed is my sense of that space. Now, how do you do that on Zoom? I think you can be really clear about backgrounds and splatter on the desk. And it's very different if anybody's watching on YouTube. When I am here in the camera, present, that feels a lot different than when I'm down looking at something else, and you know I'm checking my phone. You can just start to be more intentional about like, "I'm here for you." And then I find myself, for instance, if I'm taking a note or two, I will hold the pen up every once in a while as I'm really concentrating so that they know that when I look down, I'm using a pen. Like an intentional signifier of I'm taking a note. You can't see it. For those of you just listening, I'm holding up the pen right now.

You can't see the pen below screen level, but I don't want you to think I'm looking down, typing on the keyboard, looking at the other screen like all of us do in boring Zoom meetings. I want you to know there's a pen in my hand. Even if I never use it, I care about you because I'm thinking about your answer. All of that, anything we can do to be like, "How can I make sure you know I'm here for you?" And then the next phase of that would be whether you're physically present or Zoom would literally be here. It could be here. Not what am I going to say next? What am I going to ask? Where do they fit on my fee schedule? Is this a good client, or is this a bad client? Not yet. We don't need it... Let's be here. That's the other thing I think we can practice.

How Advicers Can Give Their Clients (And Prospects) A Different Planning Experience [17:07]

Michael: So, are you setting these conversations up before the meeting as well? You said at one point in that discussion, you're like, "I want you to feel like you're going to be coming in to have a different kind of experience," which at least I read is this isn't even starting when they get to the office. This is like starting before they get to the office or dial into the Zoom call in a virtual environment.

Carl: Yeah. I always see this. And there are people that are much better at this than I am, but I have not figured out yet how to... Nobody comes to a financial advisor to cry on their couch. Nobody comes... And this has been the challenge with me for even the term "life planning." And again, there are people who are much better at it than I am, but nobody really comes.... I've never even had anybody come for financial planning. They come because they have a specific money question. Now, when they leave after the first meeting, the thing they're going to point to is like, "Woah." The metaphor I always love is I want them walking to the car, sort of scratching their head confused by the grace they felt, like, "Wow. We just had a conversation that we've never had before. That's amazing." But I can't sell that in advance because it sounds like, "What are you talking about?"

Michael: I hear you but then how do you get to that conversation when they're coming and not expecting that conversation?

Carl: You give them the experience. You greet them. So, I think, to me, I often refer to it as the righteous trick. And I mean that really...I just want to make sure everybody's clear, especially those of you who don't know my work. The righteous trick is in service of the client. It's totally different than a bait and switch. A bait and switch is in service of the salesperson. The righteous trick is in service of the client. To me, the righteous trick is you greet somebody with empathy at the presenting problem. So, I still think I'm going to kind of show up in the world, maybe even as you're expecting me to show up. So, there's not too much cognitive dissonance between what I thought when I thought of financial planner and what I see you doing, but just enough. So, that's why high-end architect's really interesting to me because it's close. I'm not going to be jarred by the, "We're meeting on a playground," I'm not going to be jarred by the experience.

Then you're going to come to me with performance. Let's just pick on one. Like, "Oh, geez, the guy down the street who manages our portfolio." Now there's 2 ways I could handle that. I could be like, "Oh, that's really dumb. We don't do that here. We do deep comprehensive planning," or, "I'm a life planner, performance does..." Or I can understand that I'm the one that trained you. By me, I mean the industry. I'm the one that trained you that performance was really important by sending you a quarterly performance report, even though you didn't ask for it. I'm partially responsible for the idea that you think my job is to help you get great performance. I'm partially responsible just by the implication of my belonging to the broad industry.

So, I have some roles, and I have deep empathy for you thinking that that's really, really important. I'm deeply empathetic. So, I'm going to greet you with empathy at that spot. And this is the righteous trick to say like, "Michael, yeah, I understand. I hear you when you say performance. In fact, it's really important to us too because it's a lifetime driver of success. Believe me, we care deeply about it. And would it be okay if I just sort of promise you that we'll get there? Because I can tell it's really important. But before we do, would it be okay if we backed up a little bit?"

And then I go right into giving them the experience, not talking about the experience, giving them experience. So pre-meeting, I can say something like, "Hey, we found to make the best use of your time is always in service to the client. By the way, it's not like we found to make my practice more efficient and scalable that if you'll fill out this questionnaire, I can get you through faster. No. We know how busy you are. We found that to make the best use of your time, it can be helpful for you to review your financial situation before you come in. Here's some things you may want to review in case it comes up." Just very careful. In case it comes up, so we can really make the most use of your time.

So, then they show up. Our goal in our first meeting is to ask you plenty of questions and understand where you are today and how we might be able to help. And if, by the way, it's not a good fit, we'll be the first ones to tell you, we may even have a suggestion of who you could go see. So, we've already set the stage. It's a mutual discussion, and then they come in, and now we're just going to give you the experience. We're going to greet you with empathy at your presenting problem. "We just had our second kid, and we realized we don't have any life insurance." Man, empathy for that. I'm going to greet you there. And then I'm going to say, "Listen, that's really important. And so that we make a really good decision about that, could we back up?" And now I'm going to take you through whatever your version of a discovery meeting is using some of your favorite questions, but I've established already, "I hear you. That problem is real for you," even though we may be thinking like, "Come on, really?" But I hear you. That problem is real for you.

It also plays a role in the work we do. And it doesn't matter at all if we don't get the rest right. That's the righteous trick. I don't think we talk much about it. And then this is an important part that I want to emphasize. So your marketing of what you do could instead me saying like, "Come in and have a different conversation," or, "I create space for financial conversations that have never happened." Nobody signs up for that. What I could do is just tell a story about it happening. We had some clients that came in for a meeting, and what brought them in was that they were really concerned about the performance of their portfolio. And that's really important to us. But as we talked more, we started to understand that you tell the story of the experience.

Michael: Well, I'm into the story, keep going.

Carl: We are really trying to show, not tell, one-on-one and at scale. So that's the answer to the question of like, "Look, has this happened before or just at the meeting?" I don't know how you can use words like, "You can trust me. We have comprehensive planning. We do life planning. We have really great conversations." Some people have done it effectively. I know some people lead with that kind of marketing. I haven't been able to figure it out. I think the better thing is I'm going to show up. I'm going to greet you with empathy. I'm going to pull the righteous trick. You're going to walk out to the car and be like, "Wow. It was beautiful. I didn't even know I cared about that."

How Advicers Can Start Peeling Back Layers Of The Proverbial Onion (To Ask Better Questions) [24:11]

Michael: And then you're navigating it with, "Hey. This is a really clumsy question," and then just kind of lurching through your questions.

Carl: Well, no. I think in the case of a client, I would start thinking about that after the opening of like, "Hey, thanks for coming in," and greeting with empathy. I would start thinking of what happened next. My favorite way to think about this is a play. Literally practice these questions, figure out what your favorite questions are. I think the clumsy thing can be part of the follow-up. Something opens up where you're like, I call it the crunchy bits, where you feel some emotional resonance. Most of us run from that. Like, "Okay. Well, what bank do you use?" Versus, "What bank do you use?"

Somebody just brought something up like, "Man, when I was little, my mom told me that money was really dirty, and we weren't allowed to bring it in the house." And this is a real story I'm telling. "We weren't allowed to bring it in the house. And so, I've always just sort of... That's my first memory of money." And you're like, "What bank do you use?" No. What I think the clumsy piece is saying, "Oh, my gosh, that's super interesting. How has that shown up for you since?" Or, "With the benefit of 20 years of hindsight, what do you make of that now?" That might feel a little clumsy at first. So, I think the first meeting questions, you can really get down. And we've talked about first-meeting questions before, but we can talk about some now. Or if we just want to talk about... Tell me where you want to go from here. What would be most useful, do you think?

Michael: We may have to do a whole separate follow-up now, and just literally, what are some of those...

Carl: Yeah. Let's do that.

Michael: ...first-meeting questions? The other question coming to me just in hearing this discussion, the different kind of office space. It feels more like you're coming to a high-end architect than a financial advisor.

Carl: At a bank.

Michael: "Hey. I'm going to put it out there this is a clumsy question," and then we kind of navigate through it because it disarms people. It's like, I get that, but I guess my struggle on my question is do I have to be Carl Richards for that to work? You're at a certain level in your practice and where you are that to me, you get to do that. There's a more forgiving environment. The high-end architect's office looks like that. The newbie architect who's just trying to convince someone that they're old enough to design a house because they're 23 and look 16 has a different kind of experience around that. So, I guess I'm just trying to visualize more broadly. Again, I'm translating myself back to when I was starting those first, I don't know, 1, 2, 3, 5, 10 years, it was a long, long time for me that I still felt like I had something to prove to clients that they should have faith and confidence. They really do know what I'm talking about. I'm pretty good at this financial advising thing that we can get through. And I find the urge to prove your credibility runs very counter to most of the things you're talking about.

Carl: Yeah. And again, I just want to really emphasize the empathy I have for that question. That's totally true. And I think that comes from, because I did the same thing, I think that comes from a misplaced belief in what it is that we have to offer that's valuable. I think if we think our technical skills and solutions are what our value is, then... And a second place that I think this is slightly misplaced is we believe that we need to prove that we're trustworthy. And the way to prove that is by pointing to external signifiers of that. Like, "Here's how big the firm is. Here's how long I've been around. Can't you see all these things on my wall? I'm a CFP." All these external sources of proof, I understand why that feels like the thing to do.

My favorite metaphor for this is, and many of the listeners won't have to imagine this because they'll have been through it, imagine going on a first date, and the person you're on the date with spends the first hour talking about themselves. There's no second date. And even in the professional services world, imagine going to, well, let's just use a doctor. I always use the example of your 12-year-old son needs brain surgery, and you go meet with the brain surgeon, and they spend the first 15 minutes telling you about how great they are. "I went to school here, and our scalpels are this sharp and we have 17 nurses, and..." I don't even know what they would say, but I know about 2 minutes into it, you'd be like, "This feels a little weird." I think even with attorneys or CPAs, and so I think the fastest way to build trust, to me, is to... I remember John Mullen used to say this, "People will judge you by the quality of the questions you ask." And so... Yeah. Go ahead.

Michael: Which I always find really intimidating. So, I don't feel like I'm that great at asking questions. I'm mostly clumsily stirring through it with some curiosity around it. But I'm like, "I don't know what the good questions are," which is why I want to ask you in our next episode what the good questions are because I feel intimidated. Again, maybe this is me overreacting. I feel intimidated by the idea of people will judge you by the questions that you ask. I totally get it. I agree. And now I'm in my head self-consciously going like, "Oh, that wasn't the super magical question. Crap."

If people are going to judge me by the quality of my questions, then I need a list of the best questions that I can put in the spreadsheet and ask sequentially with branching logic to know that I'm asking them in the right sequence. At least for me, that becomes the challenge. For me, at least, the biggest impact I had, and I wish I could remember who said it to me or where I heard it, that I was probably 3 or 4 years into my career and doing more and more planning work and still feeling pretty uncomfortable, particularly in first meetings with clients and trying to navigate that balance.

And someone who just said to me like, "Look, I'll make it really simple." If they're not talking for at least 2/3s of the time, you failed, and you're not going to have a second meeting. Whatever it is, you need... The talking is a hot potato. Your job is to get it out of your hands as quickly as possible.

Carl: Does that work for you?

Michael: If you spent more than 1/3 of the first meeting talking, you're probably not getting a second one.

Carl: And do you find that to be really helpful?

Michael: Yes. Because for better or worse, then it was a game of like, "Doh, they tried to get me talking again. How do I lob it back over to...?" I don't know what the good question is, but I can figure out something to turn it back to them if I'm kicking in again. But, at least for me, like, I always struggle figuring out what are the good questions. I want to ask the good questions. I love the good questions, but I don't know what the good questions are. And then I get anxiety that I'm asking the wrong questions because apparently, they judge you by how good your questions are.

Carl: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's important to state I'm often wrong but never in doubt. There's certainly more ways than one to do this. And I probably am one... If there was a spectrum of these things, I would put myself on one end of the spectrum in terms of I've developed an ability to be really curious about this stuff, and it came relatively natural to me. I didn't have to work super hard at it. I know other people who are very, very analytical, and this would be almost impossible. And in both of those scenarios, you can be an advisor both ways. And I'm just painting one side of it. And I do know that I can be better at being a little bit more analytical, or I can partner with somebody who's really analytical. That's what I've chosen to do. And I do know that somebody who's really analytical can learn to be a little bit more emotionally in tune or partner with somebody who is.

And so, I think you just kind of play that game. If you feel the desire to want to do that kind of work, this is how we started. People were asking you, if you feel the desire to do it, we're just painting a picture on how you could. If you don't feel the desire and you're like, "Man, I think there's something really valuable to leaning into your strengths," don't become better at your weaknesses. So, I think those are both okay. So, let's just grant permission.

I'm not saying you have to do this or you're going to have to crawl under a rock and die, and your career will end. I'm just saying if you feel the interest in doing it, we can talk a little bit about how. And one last bit on that, I think this quality of the questions you ask is a little misleading because that seems to be pointing exactly where you go, that there's this magical list. I think it's more about, again, the presence you're creating. And the questions can be relatively clumsy if you're just kind of paying a little bit of attention and not scared to go there and open the space and cede control. That's what you're doing with the 2/3s hot potato game, is you were ceding a bit of control and saying, "I'm just going to try and ask open-ended questions." I'm sure you got told that a way to not talk the whole time is ask open-ended questions and then listen, simple things like, "And what else? Tell me more." I can't tell you how many times in a conversation, like the "50 Fires" podcast, where it's my job to be interviewing the person, how often I'll say, "And what else? Oh, tell me more. Oh, keep going." It wasn't about the first question. It was just about the ability to allow people to continue to talk.

Michael: Very cool. Very cool. I'm still going to ask you next episode what the magic questions are, but this is...

Carl: I think it'd be fun. I think it'd be fun to talk through them anyway. So, I guess what I would do here then, if we're wrapping, just is the idea of like, "You can do this. And you can practice at home, and you can practice on planes, and you..." I practice everywhere. I learned today from a "50 Fires" guest. The Duke Divinity student or graduate, she told me she loves to just say, "Tell me." That's her favorite. Tell me about your dog. She's walking, she runs into a neighbor, "Oh, so tell me about your dog. Tell me about your day." And I read this great book called "The Amen Effect" and we're trying to get her on as a guest too, Rabbi Sharon. And she talked about how powerful it is for somebody to say, "Tell me what happened to you. Tell me about your experience." Tell me what it was like to be married to me today," is a question I tried the other day. Wow. So, all you're doing is giving people permission to tell you something.

Michael: Yeah. All right. I like the "tell me" angle. I will be trying that out as well.

Carl: Yeah. Think about how easy it is, "Tell me about your kids. Tell me what you did this week."

Michael: Oh, me? It's your turn to talk. Tell me.

Carl: You tell me.

Michael: That's why I like that. That's why I like it. All right.

Carl: I think you can soften it a bit.

Michael: Less aggressive.

Carl: Cheers, Michael.

Michael: Awesome.

Carl: Yep.

Michael: Thank you, Carl.

Carl: Cheers. Yep.