#FASuccess Ep 396: Leveraging Coaches To Delve Deep Into A Divorce Specialization That Brings A Steady Flow Of Ideal-Fit Clients, With Michelle Klisanich

Resources Featured In This Episode:

• Michelle Klisanich
• Financially Wise Divorce
• Complimentary Move Forward Pieces
• #FASuccess Ep 250: Connecting Better With Prospects By Sharing Stories Instead Of Expertise, With Deirdre Van Nest
• Deirdre Van Nest
• Crazy Good Talks
• Raymond James
• #FASuccess Ep 302: Structuring Your Ideal Week To Become A Highly-Leveraged Individual Advisor, With Libby Greiwe
• Libby Greiwe
• The Efficient Advisor
• Strategic Coach

Looking for sample client service calendars, marketing plans, and more? Check out our FAS resource page!

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Full Transcript:

Michael: Welcome, Michelle Klisanich to the "Financial Advisor Success" Podcast.

Michelle: Thank you so much for having me.

Michael: I really appreciate you joining us today, and looking forward to talking about building businesses around working with divorcees. It's an interesting path that I find a lot of advisors have built towards over the years, I feel like in part because it really has a specialized body of knowledge and set of issues that people deal with, which means it gets very conducive to specialization and getting to know your specialization. And in the traditional industry speak, it's one of those "money-in-motion" scenarios. As Mitch Anthony used to always say, when life goes in transition, money goes in motion. And so, at the end of the day, as much as we can provide wonderful advice services to clients, nobody really wakes up in a sweat in the middle of the night to say, "I really need a comprehensive financial plan." It's not a driver that gets someone off the cuff to say, "Today's the day I'm going to go find a financial advisor." Divorce is.

Michelle: Heck yeah.

Michael: That's a really big transition event. And I know you've approached it with a particularly, at least to me, systematized way about how do we do this and really do it repeatably to build a business and scale a practice around it. And so, I'm excited to dig in today for this version of specializing in divorce that you have built for yourself.

Michelle: Thank you. I'm excited.

What Michelle's Divorce-Focused Business Looks Like Today [05:23]

Michael: So, I think to kick off, just help us understand the advisory firm that you have as it exists today, and then we'll talk a little bit about how it's grown and evolved over time.

Michelle: Sure. So, as it stands today, I'm duly registered with Raymond James, and I have my own RIA that I have with another advisor. But before that, that was 4 years ago that I made that change, I was a financial advisor at an insurance company trying to be a holistic CFP, but sort of in a box that I didn't quite fit in.

Michael: Okay. And how long had you been at the insurance company? How far into your career was this?

Michelle: Sixteen years, the start of my career. 16 years, where I started.

Michael: Okay. And so, help us understand a little bit more the practice now, and then I want to understand more of these transitions into divorce and out of the insurance company, so, clients and asset-base or revenue, however you measure, what does the business itself look like at this point?

Michelle: Yeah, sure. So, all my divorce clients that pay me a fee for a divorce plan, which is a one-time fee, runs in my RIA. And when that agreement is complete, oftentimes, those clients have movable money after divorce, and then they move into the Raymond James side of my business. So, oftentimes, the clients start on the RIA side doing a fee-based financial plan. We end that relationship where I finalize that financial plan, and then they go over to my other side of the business, which is wealth management on the Raymond James side. Is that helpful?

Michael: Yeah. And so, how many clients do you serve in the business?

Michelle: Ninety-one clients.

Michael: Okay. And assets under management tied to them, it sounds like you're AUM-focused?

Michelle: Yep, $87 million.

Michael: Okay. And then can I ask where revenue is for the business overall because it sounds you've got AUM fees and divorce and financial plan fees?

Michelle: Yeah. About $750 gross, estimated, for the year.

Michael: Okay. And how does that break down between AUM fees on the wealth management side of the business and divorce and financial planning fees?

Michelle: Financial planning fees are probably only $30–$40,000/year. So, it's not a huge part of my revenue source, but that's a huge part of my new AUM. And 95% of my ongoing revenue is all fee-based asset management. I charge about, on average, 95 basis points per account. And then I have some insurance one-time commissions that are probably $50,000 a year.

Michael: Okay. And what does team structure look like to support this base of clients and revenue?

Michelle: Yeah. I've been fortunate to have a right-hand person who is formerly a financial advisor, and he realized he was best in supporting an advisor role. And so, he's my account executive, named Michael Fries, and he's been with me for 7 years. So, he implements all the advice that I give, does all the rollovers and paperwork. Then I'm super excited, I have a marketing director. She's been with me for about 6 years, and she runs all my PR and helps me with what ideas we're going to do to reach more people. And then I have an executive assistant. She started with me in January. I've always had an assistant for the past maybe 8 years, but it's the first time since January that I've had someone full-time. So, 3 different staff people.

Michael: Okay. So, I'm curious to hear more about marketing director and what this person does. I don't necessarily see as many advisory firms running full-time marketing directors other than like the huge bajillion-dollar folks. So, is this a full-time role?

Michelle: No, it's not a full-time role. So, I say the word marketing director because it makes her sound a lot more professional. She's kick-ass at her job and worked at a financial services company for most of her career, and is a part-time working mom. And she works about 15, 20 hours/week for me.

Michael: Okay. It's still a lot of time.

Michelle: It is.

Michael: What does she do? How does that show up in the business?

Michelle: Yeah. I would say some weeks are lower and some weeks are higher. So, let's just say that's average. So, what she does is helps me develop deep relationships with my COIs [Centers Of Influence], which we now have an ongoing stream of referrals that are qualified. And so, part of her job is to keep up with market trends on how people want to be communicated to, to think of creative ways to stay top of mind with these COIs, to do curated marketing campaigns, to write articles on my behalf, to put my name in the hat for being in a podcast like this, for writing an article in a divorce magazine. Sometimes I forget the magnitude of what she does because it's really different every day. Does that help a little bit?

Michael: It does. So, I feel at least some of these that you're talking about, follow up with my COIs, make sure I'm entered into this thing is something that a lot of advisors give to that assistant or client service administrator support person. So, I'm struck that you hired someone entirely separate to do this.

Michelle: Yeah. She's the kind of person that just makes you look good no matter who she's with. She just makes everyone else around her look so good. And so, while my assistant absolutely has the skills and capability to do that, the way that she speaks with such eloquence in her words and creativity, I trust her to just showcase me to the world. She knows me so well and believes in me, frankly, sometimes more than myself. So, it just so happened that I delegate all of that to her. She just is that person on my team.

Michael: And were you searching for this, like, "I want a marketing person," and found her, or is this someone you met and it was so amazing, you just said, "She should do things for me?"

Michelle: Good question. So, it all boiled back to my previous firm, I could put my name in the hat for certain marketing dollars. And one year, I got $15 grand that I didn't have to pay for. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, now I have to spend it. How the heck am I going to spend this?" And so, I told my manager at the time, I said, "I want to do a bang-out spa event for divorcing women to come heal and relax." And he is like, "Okay, do you need someone, like an event planner?" I'm like, "Yeah. I need an event planner." So, he like, "I've got someone for you, my best friend's wife." So, it was just by happenstance to say, "I have this pot of money, I need to spend it wisely, and I need someone to do a bang-out event for me." So, that's how I found her.

Michael: And so, she was the person's spouse that you got introduced to as an event manager and then just said, "Let's keep doing this because it's so fun."

Michelle: Yeah, exactly. I was like, "Yeah, I think I need you about 2 hours a week." And then she kindly was like, "You might need me more than that." That always happens with staff, you think you only need a little bit, and then all of a sudden, you need someone full-time. So, it just kept growing after that.

Michael: So, out of curiosity, how do you evaluate, I guess, the investments or the ROI into a position like this?

Michelle: It's really challenging because marketing efforts sometimes can take years to pay off. And it has been a huge faith thing that I had to believe in. I think by me being around her, my confidence increased, and I was starting to see little glimpse and glimmers of signs that it was working. And the glimmers of hope kept coming consistently enough that I was like, "Okay, this is working. This was worth the investment." So, honestly, it was hope and glimmers of hope.

Michael: What kinds of glimmers showed up, or glimpses?

Michelle: So, every time I go to an event, whether it's a Rotary Club event or different volunteer stuff, she would text me on my drive there and she would go, "Make sure to get a picture of you and the president. Make sure to get a picture of you doing this." And she would just put these things in my head. And I was like, "Okay, well that's silly, but fine. Okay." And then I would send her pictures. And this was back when business pages on Facebook gained a little more traction than maybe they do today. And then all of a sudden, I was with the CEO of my former insurance company I worked for, and I took a picture with she and I, I was at this event with her. And this client of mine who was connected with me on Facebook, said, "Oh my gosh, you hang out with the CEO of XYZ company? Wow. You must be doing great things. You've never known this about me, but my husband I have a trust fund, it's worth a couple million dollars. Could we chat?" And I was like...

Michael: Whoa.

Michelle: ... "Whoa! A Facebook post does this?"

Michael: So, mental note, more pictures with senior leadership of whatever platform you're with.

Michelle: I guess so. And it wasn't even that great of a picture, which is hilarious. So, those things kept happening. And she kept proving herself to me, like, "This is going to work, just trust me."

Michael: Do you remember, how long did it take before you were really feeling it?

Michelle: A couple years, probably. Probably longer than I should have.

Michael: Okay. It took a while.

Michelle: It did take a while, yeah.

Michael: Okay. When did this CEO picture success thing crop up?

Michelle: Probably within 12 months of us working together. So, maybe that was the time where I was like, "Okay, this is working."

Michael: To me, it's one of those fascinating things. We work so hard in so many ways to find client opportunities and bring them to the firm, and it really just comes out at the end of the day to, they can't figure out who to trust, really. And it seems like if you're successful enough that you can be with the CEO of the company, you must be successful enough that I can trust you.

Michelle: Oh, sure. Yeah.

Michael: That's the trigger

Michelle: Yeah, right.

Michelle's Process For Serving Clients Going Through A Divorce [16:45]

Michael: Okay. So, interesting to understand just marketing person and how they've been involved. So now help me understand, I guess, more of the overall flow of how business comes in or how this works between, you do divorce things, but the overwhelming majority of the revenue is advisory at the end of the day. What is the divorce offering thing that you put into the world?

Michelle: A really great question. So, just to clarify, just before we start on that, as a Certified Divorce Financial Analyst, we are trained to be neutrals in divorce where I'm equally giving advice to both spouses going through divorce. There are few CDFAs, and maybe there's more than I know, who do what's called non-neutral work. And that's where my practice lies. So, my divorce service is just for one person, and it's the woman. Yes, I work with a few men, but my specialty and how I present myself to the world is very feminine. And I gear my business towards divorcing women intentionally. And so, what that service is, is a one-time financial planning fee to help an affluent woman untangle her finances as she's working with her attorney, for me to educate the attorney on the tax ramifications, and provide guidance on the different settlement options.

And so, that can be a couple months long, it can be over a year long. I don't always know how that divorce, the length is going to be. And I've created a system to keep me on track and to let the client know what they're going to get from that system. And every divorce, of course, is so different. So, the system is there, we don't always completely follow it because every divorce is different. But essentially, I'm with them ideally from the day that they're served with divorce papers to the day they're signing on the dotted line that it's finalized. They're hiring me from that point in time.

Michael: Okay. So, help me understand what the system is. What do you literally do if, "I'm reaching out to you, Michelle, I just got served, the divorce is happening, oh my gosh, I have no idea what to do, but apparently you do this?"

Michelle: Yeah. Okay. So, the first part of my system is to help people prepare for their divorce. Let's say they haven't been served yet. It could be, how are you going to get your ducks in a row financially so that when you're ready for your divorce, you're ready emotionally and financially? But in your case let's say the divorce has already started, in your example. And so, the first thing that I do is connect people with the right divorce team. Part of what I get entrusted to do is to connect these people to the right attorney, therapist, and whoever else they might need on their divorce team.

Michael: Okay. So, where do these people come from? You built your own network of who they all are so you can make referrals?

Michelle: Correct, yes. So, I've vetted them through the past 10 years, and it always changes. Sometimes relationships change. But I've vetted these people who I call my divorce team. Let's say there's 3 to 5 people per category. The biggest people on the divorce team, of course, are family law attorneys, divorce attorneys, but there's all these ancillary people in divorce that I feel are really important that are also part of that team.

Michael: So, what other categories show up besides family law?

Michelle: So, besides family law, in the mortgage world, there's divorce mortgage experts, there's divorce coaches, so kind of a life coach but with a divorce twist. So, different than a therapist where therapists really can't tell you what to do, they listen and help you clarify how you're feeling. A divorce coach can really help people get unstuck and push them to say like, "I've been through divorce too," and really guide them and kick their butt, if you will, if they're stuck. So, family law attorneys, divorce mortgage brokers, divorce coaches, and therapists, I say are the big ones.

Michael: Okay. So, a new client comes in, says, "I'm going through divorce, I don't even know what to do." So, the first, "Okay. Let me introduce you to this attorney in family law. You've got a mortgage that's going to have to get sorted out, so here's a mortgage broker. Do you want to talk to a coach as well?" Because I'm assuming that's a little more specific to the person about whether they want that support.

Michelle: Yeah. I would say the family law attorney introduction comes first, and then the other people come as I get to know them. I certainly don't in the first meeting go, "You need a therapist." It probably comes a few meetings later.

Michael: Okay. So then, what comes next once we make introductions to the team?

Michelle: So, introductions to the team. So, while we're getting started on these next steps, they're interviewing their attorney team to see who they want to hire. And then I'm helping clarify in their divorce what's most important to them, and in their divorce, what are things that are non-negotiables for them. And I have to be careful with the non-negotiables in a way, because you certainly can't get all that you want in divorce. This next step is very similar to normal financial planning, like, priorities and goals post-divorce as well. And then after that, I think this is where it really differentiates from normal financial planning, is getting organized and setting expectations on what they can expect financially in their divorce.

The last thing that people want to do is pay boatloads of legal fees that are unnecessary. And part of what we help do is get the attorney team and our team talking, and we help the client get organized with all that stuff they have to get organized. And instead of having them duplicate information for an attorney and for us, we tend to be the quarterback and gather all that information that the attorney team needs and get it packaged off to the attorney team nice and organized. Because quite often, people are just totally lost and they're spending gobs of money just having their attorney organize all their documents. So, we help them do that.

Common Mistakes Made By Individuals Going Through A Divorce [23:56]

Michael: Okay. So then, what comes after getting organized?

Michelle: Yeah. So, we talk about divorce mistakes and divorce tips. So, there are a handful of divorce mistakes that I see time and time again that I want to make sure every one of my clients avoid. And so, my goal is to educate them early enough in the process so that we can get their attorney also to get educated on that. I see so many times spousal maintenance and child support not supported with the right life insurance, for example. It's a fairly basic CFP financial planning thing, but it's often missed in divorce and divorce decrees. So, I talk about different mistakes. Some of them are tax mistakes, some of them are division of asset mistakes.

Michael: What else crops up that you see often?

Michelle: Oh my gosh. People often, I see division of assets down the middle sometimes where let's say there's 5 401(k)s and 3 IRAs, and the attorney says, "Okay, let's split them all down the middle. It's all marital, let's just split it down the middle." And there's so many legal fees involved to divide 401(k) plans with that QDRO [Qualified Domestic Relation Order]...

Michael: Right, because the QDROs.

Michelle: Yeah. And they're just such a pain for the client. They're costly, they take forever to get completed. If they get completed, they often get rejected by the plan administrator. And so, I just try and simplify things to say, "Hey, why don't we try and split this big IRA, and then we'll avoid all these little ones to split."

Michael: Like, "You take the big IRA and he'll take the 5 little 401(k)s, and you end out with the same amount of money and zero QDROs."

Michelle: Exactly. Or maybe the opposite is true. Maybe the woman I'm working with is 50, she's well under 59 and a half, and I want her to get QDRO money because of the one-time withdrawal thing where you avoid the pre-59-and-a-half penalty. So, in that opposite case, I might say, "Because you told me you want to buy a house in a year, and all of your money as a married couple is tied up in his large 401(k), or maybe there's an IRA too, let's try and get more QDRO money." We never want to see clients take out money before 59 and a half, but in divorce, it happens. So, sometimes it's just a little creativity instead of just down-the-middle everything.

Michael: Okay. So, what happens after mistakes and tips?

Michelle: Yeah. Then we're typically at that part of the divorce decree has been drafted out by the attorney, and I am continuing to give different tweaks and strategies. And this is often where we bring in other divorce team specialists, like a CPA, for example. I have so many decrees that I see after the fact, and there's all these tax questions that get left answered, like, before they got divorced, who's claiming the mortgage interest deduction? If it's not clarified in the decree, these couples are just scrambling, "What do I do?" I can't catch everything, of course. But my goal is to be like, "Okay, CPA, come in. Okay, divorce mortgage person, come in. Read this decree to make sure we've covered everything and that we don't have to reopen this legal thing later."

Michael: What's the mortgage issues that crop up?

Michelle: Yeah. I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about divorce and mortgage, hence why I will only refer people to divorce mortgage experts for my divorcing clients. So, there's, obviously, the high rate issue today where couples are having to get creative on what to do with a joint mortgage post-divorce.

Michael: Especially if it's an old low-rate one. Everybody wants to keep the one with the favorable terms and not have to buy the new house with the new rates.

Michelle: Yeah. And so, this the idea of a loan assumption, not everyone knows about, and that's my favorite strategy to just tell a client, "Hey, you're keeping the mortgage, or you're keeping the marital home. You are on the mortgage, but he is too. Let's see if your bank will allow a loan assumption, keep the original rates, keep the original terms, and get his name off." And I need a divorce mortgage person to really study the thing to be like, is the loan assumption going to work?

Michael: Okay. Because again, when you're going through a full divorce, the ex-spouse does not want to stay on a mortgage that they're technically still on the hook for if they're really not supposed to carry that debt.

Michelle: Yeah. Okay. Unfortunately, a lot of times they have to stay on it because the mortgage company forces them to, but the decree will say, ex-spouse isn't responsible for the mortgage, but it doesn't mean his or her credit can't go down in the trash. So, another thing that happens is spousal maintenance. Oftentimes, the women that I'm working with are sometimes the breadwinner, sometimes not. So, let's say it's the case where she's not the breadwinner and she's getting spousal maintenance. Well, oftentimes when a divorce is happening, you want to get out of the marital house or you want him to get out of the marital house ASAP. And so, there's some sort of housing change that needs to happen while the divorce is pending, usually.

And it's really challenging for people to get approved for these mortgages while the divorce is pending. So, sometimes the mortgage company, the mortgage expert, will help us settle the divorce case by saying this: "Your client needs $6,000 of spousal maintenance in order to afford the mortgage if she's going to assume the marital mortgage moving forward." And so, that's ammunition that the attorney can use to say, "Okay, if the wife wants to keep the house, it may not be financially the right thing to do." Then that attorney knows, for her to take over that million-dollar mortgage, let's say, the mortgage broker can tell us exactly what maintenance is needed to get the mortgage in her name post-divorce.

Michael: So, what comes next? I'm presuming at this point, basically, we're going through the divorce decree, we're getting everybody on board looking at it like, "Okay, do you see anything that we might also need to get in there? Do you see need to see anything we might need to get in there?" So, What comes next in the process?

Michelle: Yeah. Typically, after we redline things and go back and forth, then everyone signs off and agrees on things. And this is the favorite part, my favorite part of the process is once it's over with. So, we summarize the client's divorce decree and what we call the "Financially Wise Roadmap." And essentially it's a CliffNotes version of the long boring legal document. So, it's a 1- to 2-page document to say, "Client, here's your to-dos, here's our team's to-dos, here's your attorney's team's to-dos." And we're getting everyone in the loop because so often, people are so overwhelmed, they're like, "Now it's done, I don't want to look at it." But unfortunately, that's where the hard work starts to come in, is, now we've got to retitle and do all this stuff. So, we just want everyone to be on the same page of who's doing what, when.

Michael: Okay. And so, what happens now as you, I guess, get through resolution of the mortgage and retitling and all the rest?

Michelle: Yeah. I've created this post-divorce checklist to keep, frankly, me accountable. It's also a great marketing tool for potential clients. And essentially, we just go down this post-divorce checklist to make sure we cross everything off, the typical update estate plans, update beneficiaries, continue to retitle assets, check your credit report, make sure nothing funky happened in the divorce, all the nitty gritty stuff.

Transitioning Clients From Divorce Planning To An Ongoing Advice Relationship [32:34]

Michael: Okay. And so, at what point does this end and the advisory discussion...I guess, the advisory relationship begin, and how do you get from one to the other?

Michelle: Yeah. So, I am very clear upfront when we have our initial call with the divorcing person to be very clear to say, "Here's my service to help you as you navigate divorce. And where my heart is truly at is to help you once the storm is over, clean everything up and move forward. And what that looks is me being your advisor post-divorce, helping you manage the money, and be your financial person. How do you feel about that?" So, I'm screening that in that first initial 30-minute free consult to get their reaction.

Michael: Oh, interesting. That's part of the discussion upfront, is, "It's separate engagements, but I'm not here to just work with you through the divorce, I'm looking to work with people who want me to help them through the divorce and help them afterwards?"

Michelle: Correct. Yeah. So, I've learned the hard way by not clarifying upfront, and at the end they say, "Oh, thanks, that was great. Goodbye. I'm a do-it-yourselfer, classic do-it-yourselfer." So, I try and screen the do-it-yourselfers upfront, because the last thing I want to do is put all my heart into this. I'm not probably charging enough to do a "one-time-see-you-later" kind of fee. I probably could. But where my heart is...you get to know these people crazy well and in the most emotional time in their life. So, from a personal standpoint as well as my business standpoint, I want to make sure I'm working with these women after divorce too.

Michael: So then, how does it work when you get to the tail end?

Michelle: Yeah. So, when it gets to the tail end, it's kind of a natural transition that it's, okay, so we have to move all these accounts, and we have this big spreadsheet of who's doing what. And I'll talk to them about, "When we first got started, I shared with you that where my heart is at is to work with you long term. I just want to confirm you still feel that way, that you want to work together moving forward." And then once I get their blessing, we just transition to a whole another, just the normal asset management, financial planning relationship from there.

Michael: And again, because as Mitch says, when life goes in transition, money goes in motion, you're settling a divorce decree. So, almost by definition, money has to be moving and transferring and retitling and re-registering and all and all that because we actually have to bust up accounts and move them if that's what works.

Michelle: Right. And part of our service, I clarify up front, is, as we're dividing everything, we're often dividing stuff at other places. So, we've gotten really good at Fidelity and Vanguard forms. But ultimately, what happens is, she, most often, will tell me, "Well, can't you just help me with all this?" It's just a natural progression of the conversation.

Michael: So, how long does it take to go through that? You articulated out like 7 or 8 different steps there all the way through, like, we're preparing, we're bringing the doors team together, we're helping you get organized, we're talking about mistakes and tips, we're going through the divorce decree., we're formulating the action plan afterwards. So, how long does this take, and how many meetings is it that you have to go through?

Michelle: That's a great question. I really ought to track. I would say on average, it's 6 to 12 months, and there's a lot of dead time in between that. So, there's so much waiting in divorce, waiting for the attorney to be available, waiting for a judge to be available. So, it takes a long time, but it doesn't mean we're grinding the whole entire time. I would say it's about the same amount of meetings as my normal non-divorced clients, 3–5 1-hour meetings to develop my advice.

Michael: 3–5 1-hour meetings, not 5-hour meetings. Okay. 3–5...

Michelle: 3–5 1...

Michael: 1-hour meetings.

Michelle: Yeah.

Michael: Okay. So, just as you went through that, so, which ones are actually meetings?

Michelle: It's probably not as formulized as that. Some of them are. So preparing for your divorce definitely would be a meeting. But connecting them with our divorce team, that's all virtual stuff we're doing over email. So, preparing is 1, getting organized is 2, mistakes to avoid is 3, reviewing their divorce decree is 4, and then post-divorce, 5, post-divorce cleanup stuff.

Michael: Okay. How much work and activity is there for you to do between meetings throughout the process. I'm envisioning relative to some CDFAs I know that do the full-on neutral work and the court testimony and the res. It sounds you're not in that end. This isn't dozens of hours of financial analysis kind of thing.

Michelle: No, I'm reacting to what the financial neutral has created. So, I'm not an analytical brain like you are and other people, that's not my deal. And so, I'm reacting to what someone else has created. And frankly, the attorney team, they want to control the balance sheet and all of the spreadsheets that go on, they want it in their format. So, I'm reacting to numbers that are already organized, so I feel I have the easy job in that way.

Michael: Okay. So then, what do you charge for this?

Michelle: My current flat fee is $3,000. And I add on additional fees for us to organize clients' historical cash flow. Let's say 2, 3 years of organizing Excel cash flow data, we charge an additional flat fee of $500 for that. There's been times where I'm like, "Should I charge hourly?" Probably. But it's just a whole another world that I haven't gotten into yet. So, I've just kept my life simple by doing a flat fee.

Michael: Interesting. So, per your comments earlier, this isn't a profit center for you?

Michelle: Nope.

Michael: It's not built to be a profit center for you.

Michelle: Not at all.

Michael: This is like, "I'm going through a deep process of adding value to someone I hope to work with on long-term basis. And they're paying me something to market to me." That's a callous way to put it because you're adding...

Michelle: Yup. It's a loss leader, for sure.

Michael: Very meaningful value in what you're doing.

Michelle: Oh my gosh.

Michael: You're getting paid to build the relationship for a long-term advisory client not to get paid to do divorce or plan.

Michelle: Right. Yes, for right or for wrong, that's how I built it, yeah. I want the price to be enough that it's an investment that they take seriously and consider me a highly qualified professional, but not so much so that they're like, "Well, I might not need you." So, it's for right or for wrong, that's how I've done it.

Michael: Okay. Because I was going to ask, on the one hand, I can make the case both ways. If it's working so well in bringing in clients, why charge anything and put a fee impediment in the way? And on the other end, if it's working so well, why not charge your full value because it's very, very time-consuming?

Michelle: Good question.

Michael: So, it sounds like you're intentionally balancing this.

Michelle: Yeah. And I always question myself, who doesn't? It's like, I don't know, I think it's working. If my coach was listening to this, she'd be like, "Michelle, we've been talking about increasing your fee, clearly you haven't." So, yeah, it works today, let's just say that.

Michael: And so, in practice, how much of your client growth comes from this?

Michelle: Almost all.

Michael: Is this one of the things you do? Almost all?

Michelle: Almost all, yeah. So, what's interesting is of the 91 households I manage, about half came from divorce. And I'm adding about 10 clients per year or about 1 per month, and they're all divorced, mostly.

Michael: So, half the clients coming from divorce essentially means because the other half came before divorce was your thing...

Michelle: Correct. Yeah, exactly.

Michael: ... and they're pre-divorce-era Michelle?

Michelle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And the pre-divorce-era Michelle people, they know I dabble in divorce, but I'm not pushing all this, I'm a divorce expert marketing to them so that it's not confusing messaging.

Michael: Okay. Do you push any marketing to them?

Michelle: Yep, I do. And frankly, some people come to me as a happily...well, what they say is happily-married couple because they know in the back of their head they want a divorce. Sounds horrible. So, they know like, "Oh, she's in my back pocket just in case I need her." So, yes, they do know I specialize, but I don't shove it down their throats because they hopefully never will get divorced.

Michael: Okay. But it sounds like from the flip side, you may not push the divorce language as much to existing clients, but the growth's basically all coming from divorce clients anyways.

Michelle: Heck yeah. Correct. Correct. And that's all coming from referrals from COIs, mostly.

Using A Speaking Coach To Break Through From Early Career Struggles [43:16]

Michael: Okay. So now, help us understand a little bit more of the evolution of what was pre-divorce Michelle, and when did that change?

Michelle: Yeah. That's a good question. So, pre-divorce Michelle was a starving, struggling financial advisor on full commission. I never had a draw. And I don't know exactly how I made it some days. So, I started in 2006 at the insurance company. I guess maybe I did have a draw for 6 months. And I just latched on to anyone that looked older than me. I looked like I was 12 at the time, I was told that by a client. I was horrifically...

Michael: Oh, actually told by a client?

Michelle: Yes. Oh yes.

Michael: That's great.

Michelle: It was fabulous for my confidence.

Michael: I was going to say, so we're not just self-imposing it, clients are actually ripping us down at this point?

Michelle: Exactly. I was 21 at the time, so not that far from 12, but it really was not good for my confidence. So, I just latched onto anyone with gray hair, even if I had more experience than them. Them, I was super insecure about my age. I still am, but I'm getting better. And I just latched onto them and I would brag about my team, brag about their experience. I was just a huge cheerleader of other people because I knew as a 21-year-old, how much do I really know at 21?

Michael: Okay. So, that was the way that you tried to fight for credibility, build up credibility was, "Well yeah, I look young. Look at my team, look at the people I'm associated with."

Michelle: Exactly.Yep.Yep.

Michael: Okay. So, what was it like at the beginning trying to get clients? Were you in a cold-calling world? How did you get started?

Michelle: Oh, yeah, it was like, you came up with a spreadsheet of your top 300. I don't remember what they called it, but oh, yeah, It was that world of cold calling. And then we also got orphan clients assigned to us that had little baby insurance policies. And some of those did become clients. I remember for a couple of years after call night, which was, I don't know, 3, 4 times a week, just crying like, "What the heck am I doing? These people think I'm a joke," or I thought I was a joke. But then just glimmers of hope would happen, like someone would say yes to me or they'd buy a term policy, or little things started happening that caused me to stick around.

Michael: So, how bad was it early years? How low was your take-home in the early years?

Michelle: Twenty thousand the first year in 2006.

Michael: Nice. How quickly did it rise or not from there?

Michelle: Forty, 50,000 in the next year. But I banked a bunch of it because I was like, "I don't know, I might make nothing the next year." It was slow. Of course, when they interviewed you, they're like, "Oh, year 3, you're going to make $100,000." That was not my path. I had a slow path, very slow path. The first 10 years were tough.

Michael: And the first 10 years were tough.

Michelle: Maybe 6, maybe 10.

Michael: And this is mostly commission-based business at the time, so the dollars are front-loaded because, mission structure, just to get to 20K the first year and 40K for the next.

Michelle: Yeah. That was all we had at the time, A shares and term life and maybe a little bit universal life. Free financial planning was the thing then for good or for bad, at least in the place I was at.

Michael: Okay. Was there a point where you finally got to saying, "Okay. I think I'm going to make it, it's working. I'm going to survive?"

Michelle: Yeah. Certainly there was. There are just so many ups and downs, it's hard to count sometimes. I would say coaches I've hired believed in me way before I did, and they would remind me to believe in myself. And I'm grateful for all of them that I've hired. I would not be here without them. But I would say the moment where I thought I would make it is when I got my CFP. I thought, "Okay, at least I've got this credential behind me. Maybe the best, or what I could do is I could go work at a bank on salary as a CFP." So, I thought in my brain, "Okay, I've made it. If I just totally fail being on commission, at least someone's going to want me. I have my CFP and my Series 7."

Michael: Oh, interesting. So, that was the, "I now know I have a salary-based fallback?"

Michelle: Yeah, I think so. That was always in my brain, like, "Okay, I know I could go make XYZ at a bank." And that kept me going.

Michael: So, you said you used coaches a lot. I guess I'm curious, when did you hire your first coach?

Michelle: I hired my first coach probably in 2010. So, 4 years after I started. And the coach that I hired is a speaking coach, Deirdre Van Nest. She runs a business, it was called Speak and Get Results. It's now different [Crazy Good Talks]. I'll never forget, she quoted her feed to me. At the time it was $5,000. And she's like, "You're doing a ton of public speaking, but are you getting results?" And I was like, "No, but I'm speaking a bunch." So, she had me sold right away. I am like, "Okay, if I want to grow by speaking, I want to hire the best," which was her at the time in my mind. And I remember paying her fee and I was laughing. I'm like, "Oh, there goes my vacation fund for the year," you know, those sacrifices.

Michael: I'm assuming at this stage, $5 grand was a big number then?

Michelle: Yes. But I'm the type of person that when I hire a coach, I'm going to get my money's worth because I've invested a ton. And I was at a low point where I was speaking at high schools late at night, community ed, busting my butt with the old projector and handouts, and I'm speaking to 8 people and maybe 1 wanted to talk but they had no money. I'm like, "I've got to change this." And hiring Deirdre really helped me become a more effective speaker and also hone in on my niche, which is my divorce niche today.

Michael: So, what changed? what did she have you change about your speaking that started to turn the results?

Michelle: Telling stories to connect with people emotionally. I think we as advisors, we tell facts, and facts just go in and out of people's heads, but stories really stick. What is it, "facts tell stories sell"? And there's a blueprint to speaking to get results. You have to plant these non-salesy seeds throughout your speaking to then sell your system at the end. And so, it really was Deirdre who said, "You have to have a signature system. If you're going to be a business that you want referrals, you can brag about a system all day long, but it would be really awkward to brag about how good you are. That'd be super awkward." And so, that was my segue into creating my signature system because that was part of her blueprint. I had to create one.

Michael: Okay. And so, what was the system that you launched at the time?

Michelle: The Move Forward System For Women In Divorce at the time is what I called it. It really wasn't a system, I just called it a system because my firm at the time wouldn't let me market myself that way.

Michael: Oh, like, heaven forbid, you have to put something with your own trademark through corporate compliance.

Michelle: Right. So, I spoke about it, but I just had to fudge it, if you will.

Michael: And was this what then led you down the divorce route? Deidre said you had to make a system out of something, and to make a system you have to figure out who the system's for, so I guess now I'm a divorce specialist?

Michelle: Well, I forgot to tell you a huge part of my story is that I went through divorce in 2011, soon after I hired Deirdre, and I hit rock bottom. Your life just falls apart when you go through tough stuff like that. So, ironically, as I'm hiring her, I'm going through my own divorce and she's like, "What are you passionate about?" I'm like, "Well, sure as heck, not divorce. I don't want to think about it ever again." And then it kept tugging at me and she's like, "Michelle, you're passionate about this. Women are coming out of your natural network going, ‘You did this. Can you help me?'" So, it just happened.

Michael: Interesting. And so, you went through it, others were finding you about it at the same time that Deidre is saying, "You got to pick a thing you're passionate about to pursue," and it all came together to say, "Well, I guess this is going to be my thing?"

Michelle: Yeah.

Gaining Clients Through Adult Education Speaking Engagements [53:41]

Michael: Any other tips and takeaways just that you gleaned from Deidre's process that shaped this further?

Michelle: I know I learned a ton from her. It was so long ago that we worked together. When I was hiring her, people were like, "Are you hiring like a Toastmasters person?" I'm like, "No, no, no."

Michael: Oh, speaking coach like Toastmasters, right?

Michelle: Right. That's what people thought. I'm like, "Yeah. I can see how you think that, but no, she's telling me the art of speaking to get people to love you, to trust you, and to be your client." And so, essentially you learn about this template of you only want to speak probably about 3 things in your talk and everything needs to have an example, a real-life analogy, an activity, or a handout. She has this beautiful template. And honestly, when I implemented her template into my talks, my results just increased dramatically. Probably because my confidence was higher because someone believed in me, but also because I was speaking more effectively versus those boring corporate-made PowerPoints that you see so often, those were not cutting it.

Michael: And what speaking were you doing?

Michelle: I was doing, you know those brochures you get in your community of free financial planning workshop? Mine was, I think I did Retire Wisely Workshop and then Divorce Wisely was what I called it at the time. So, I did both nondivorce and divorce.

Michael: Where were you advertising them and delivering them?

Michelle: The school would send them out to the entire city for free. And then my marketing gal would send them out to prospective clients and attorneys I was networking with at the time to say, "Michelle's speaking on this subject, feel free to tell others if they want to sign up." So, that was early in my marketing journey.

Michael: And then where did you actually deliver the system?

Michelle: Oh my gosh, at high schools, middle schools, after schools were closed at night.

Michael: What's the system that you can get the school, like middle school or high school to send this out to everyone?

Michelle: Well, a lot of community ed programs already exist in most communities. And so, it's a number one thing I would tell advisors listening that contact your local community, adult community ed, and ask if there's a program existing that you're passionate about, these 3 subjects, can you be on the roster? It was early days how I got all my new clients and I'd highly recommend it.

Michael: Okay. So, it's not like the middle school was sending things out to parents, it's just the middle school. The adult community education program was sending out, but as part of the community system, they would set you up in a local middle school, and they have classrooms.

Michelle: Exactly. Yeah.

Michael: And it was free?

Michelle: Exactly.

Michael: And did people have to pay for the workshops? Did you do that version of it?

Michelle: Okay, good question. No at first, but then imagine a beautiful, nice summer night and you signed up for a free workshop and all your friends are going out for dinner on the lake, are you going to show up? Heck no. So, I started charging $15, and I couldn't technically charge, so I donated it back to the program.

Michael: Oh, because then you'd have to clear the OBA, outside business activity with your insurance company?

Michelle: I didn't want to deal with that. So, I was like, "Okay charge them, but don't give it to me and let's have these people have skin in the game." And people who sign up for community ed, they tend to be more frugally-minded people, not always. It doesn't mean they don't have money though. And so, if you're going to pay 15 bucks, most people would show up. So, once I started putting a little fee associated, the attendance rate went up quite a bit.

Getting Additional Coaching To Gain The Confidence To Go Independent [58:04]

Michael: Okay. Who was the next coach in this journey because it sounds like you've done multiple coaches?

Michelle: Oh, yeah. So, my next coach was a friend of mine at the company I was previously working at who became a coach. So, her name is Libby Greiwe, and she has a pretty fabulous podcast called "The Efficient Advisor." And she was my coach before she was a formal coach. I'm so incredibly blessed. So, she was my friend I met at conferences and we became friends and she was starting her coaching career, and I think I was maybe one of her first guinea pigs, if you will. And so, we became fast friends, and if you know Libby, she's very easy to become fast friends with. And I just admired everything she was doing. She was working a 3-day workweek, raising 2 little boys and just killing it with confidence. Whether or not she actually had it, but she was just so incredibly confident in what she was doing. And I was like, "I want more of that."

And so, I just latch onto people that had what I wanted. And I'll never forget, we became friends. I don't even know if I paid her formally or what that looked like at first. And one day I called her, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I got asked by my former company to speak at some women's event. How cool is that?" And I'm like, "But that's a ton of time, do I really want to do that?" And she's like, "Well, what if you started coaching advisors at our firm in divorce planning? You're really good at it." I'm like, "Really, I am? Okay." And so, she encouraged me. She's like, "What if you launch a coaching business and you train everyone in our firm how to be a divorce planner?" And I was like, "You're brilliant. I don't know if I can do that." Well, I just believed everything she said, and I did it. And I spoke to 300 women. I had 100 women come out to me going, "I want to do this niche like you." And all of a sudden it launched into a $60,000 career coach year for me. That was all because Libby was like, "You should do this." And I'm like, "Okay, I trust you."

Michael: And so, what was the nature of the coaching engagement with Libby? I'm trying to understand our contrast, Deirdre was $5,000 and I go through her program, but I'm assuming it wraps up once you get to the program, now you just go do the thing with the rest of the people.

Michelle: I paid her hourly. So, she was highlighted in our firm as a successful advisor coach, you can hire her. It was $250 an hour, which was a ton of money for me back then, and still is today. And I remember, I'm like, "If I'm going to pay this amount of money, I'd better have all my questions organized. I better do my homework she's telling me to do, otherwise this is a waste of money." And every time I would pay her and do what she suggested, I'd get a new client and I'd charge a bit more because she suggested I do that. And I could just see every dollar I poured into coaching come back to me. And so, it just kept going. We did that for years together.

Michael: Out of curiosity, how often did you meet and go through this?

Michelle: Once a month, I would say. And then on an as-needed basis.

Michael: Okay. And so, did this continue... You said you started the insurance company, you were billing at the insurance company. You met Libby through the insurance company. So, did this continue straight through to leaving the insurance company?

Michelle: No.

Michael: You're not there now?

Michelle: No, it stopped. Maybe I worked with her for 5 years and then I got introduced to Strategic Coach. So, I was interviewing or loosely interviewing all the highest AUM successful firms at my previous company. And I was like, "Hey, how are you so successful? What do you do? What is it that has just made you skyrocket?" And they all would tell me, "We use Strategic Coach, we implemented it, and it's a huge part of our success." So, I pivoted to Strategic Coach, and ultimately hiring Strategic Coach is what motivated me to leave and become independent.

Michael: So, for folks who aren't familiar, I know Strategic Coach's been out there for a while, but can you explain Strategic Coach and just what it is, what you were seeking out and getting from it?

Michelle: So, Strategic Coach helps you break the ceiling of complexity that we all hit as entrepreneurs to break open that ceiling of whatever's holding you back from growth or revenue to have exponential growth and joy from what you're doing. And so, what surprised me about Strategic Coach is it's a lot more about achieving what you want personally to then be fulfilled, to be motivated professionally. And so, I was really hesitant to do coaching because I was at a point in my career where I was just so burnt out. I'm like, "I have spent my, not my adolescent, but all my 20s busting it, making less money than all my friends, and I keep pouring money into coaching. When can I finally have a little bit of fun here?"

And I did that with Strategic Coach too. I'm like, "Okay, this is a huge investment." It was $10,000 a year at the time, maybe still is. And I told the guy when he was giving me his pitch about why I should hire them, I'm like, "I don't want to hire you, because I just want to enjoy life more." And he is like, "That's the exact reason why you should hire us." And I'm like, "Oh, come on. That's a sales pitch." And he's like, "No..."

Michael: I know. It was like, "You lobbed that right up there for him."

Michelle: I know. I'm so gullible too. And then he is like, "Well, actually, a lot of people find more personal joy, their marriages are healthier, they travel more, they achieve more personally through our program." And I was like, "What?" And of course, I believe everything people say, I'm like, "Okay, I trust this. Other people have found success." And I jumped right in. And they were so true, I've never crushed more personal goals than I have because of Strategic Coach.

Michael: So, what was the Strategic Coach influence or change or thing that transformed you?

Michelle: That's a good question. I think it was all confidence-building for me. And I think that's what we all need in our everyday life is the more confident we can become in what we do and what we love, the more people are going to gravitate towards us. And when I was around other entrepreneurs and they're struggling with the same things I am, and they're having imposter syndrome like I am, like, "Am I good enough? Have I made it yet," It just made me go, "Holy crap, I'm not alone." And just that feeling of being alone and am I doing this right, and you're in a room with 20 other successful people knowing that you're going through the same trenches and struggles. So, the people that I met in that group was just as valuable as what they taught me.

Michael: Very cool. And any other, I guess, takeaways of just how the business changed or was impacted as you went through this?

Michelle: Well, it made me fine-tune my divorce niche even further. So, before Strategic Coach, I specialized in helping women navigate divorce, but it wasn't until Strategic Coach that I really nailed down my ideal client avatar. So, Strategic Coach is all about defining your ideal client, not overworking yourself, staffing up, becoming an expert in your field. And so, they inspired me to go from 350 clients down to 90. And I was able to do that when I left my insurance company firm and went independent. There's no way in heck if I had stayed at the old firm I could have said goodbye to that many clients.

Michael: Because they wouldn't let you...

Michelle: Right. They'd be like, "You're my best friend, you've known me forever."

Michael: Oh, not the insurance company would've prevented you, just social dynamics.

Michelle: Exactly. I couldn't have said goodbye to the little old grandma I've worked with forever and I couldn't have had the heart to say goodbye to her, but going independent, I had a very good excuse to say I'm starting over.

Michael: And so, is that basically what you told them? You went to a segment of clients and said, "I just want to let you know I'm leaving the company and starting over. But don't worry, you'll be in great hands with them and they'll assign you another advisor?"

Michelle: Yep. I preselected the advisor that was best fit for them so that I didn't have guilt when I left so that I knew they were taken care of.

Michael: And then you could leave?

Michelle: Yeah. Otherwise, I would've had way too much guilt to be like, "No, I need to take care of these people." So, Strategic Coach was very intentional to inspire me to narrow my client book of business down, to increase my minimums. Well, first of all, to establish a minimum, and then to stick to it, and then to market your minimum. And all the stuff they were telling me to do, like have a signature system, which was a repeat that Deirdre years ago had told me, I was realizing I was looking around the room and all the other financial advisors were independent and I'm like, "What am I doing? What am I doing at a big insurance company? I need to leave." And so, it was quite instrumental for me.

Michael: So, what was it about, "They're all independent, I'm at an insurance company," that wasn't sitting well for you?

Michelle: Well, Strategic Coach was like, "Be you, be your unique self. Make sure your website speaks to your unique self." And I'd go back to my firm, I'm like, "I want to speak to my divorce specialty." And they're like, "Nope, sorry. You have to choose from these 5 prompts. If you don't fit in the box, sorry." And I just kept pushing and pushing, like, "I want to be me, I want to be feminine, I want to work with women, I want to work with divorce. And they're like, "Sorry, that's not one of the preselected prompts you can put on your website." And I was like, "I can't handle this anymore."

Michael: Okay. We'll have a link to your website in the show notes. So, for folks who are listening, this is kitces.com/396 for Episode 396. But I see it, you go to the website for your firm, it's literally "Financially Wise Divorce". I hear you, I empower you, I educate you, start now, and your smiling face. Just you right there looking back, like, "This is me." So, very not traditional large-firm corporate marketing.

Michelle: Yeah.

Michael: So, what's it like when your client base drops by 75%, 80%?

Michelle: Scary as heck. Also, you hear about the 80/20 rule, that 80% of your revenue comes from 20% of your clients. And I know that every manager and coach out there talks about that. But to actually trust that by bringing 20% of your clients it will be 80% of your revenue, I looked at spreadsheet after spreadsheet going, "Is the math right? Does 20% of my book represent 80% of my revenue? Yes, it does."

Michael: So, that really did hold true.

Michelle: Oh, yeah.

Michael: I guess traditional, particularly insurance world, you meet everyone, you talk to everyone, you have a zillion clients and a lot of them are very small or very legacy.

Michelle: Right. And thankfully at the time, I forgot to say, I was building AUM, what I called wrap business or fee-based asset management. So, thankfully, I had started doing that in the past 5 to 10 years. So, I did have some tangible ongoing revenue I could touch and see. But to actually implement that, Strategic Coach, my coach, was in my ear, like, "You can do this. This is going to work. The math works. You got this." I needed lots of people to cheerlead me, to be like, "This is going to work." It was scary as heck.

Michael: And then you made the transition to say, "I'm really just going after this 20% segment?"

Michelle: Exactly.

Michael: Were you able to do that? Did you have non-compete, non-solicit stuff that you had to navigate?

Michelle: I did. I hired an attorney and did all that stuff and followed the protocol and all that. It was before…rules have changed since then, but I was able to answer calls. My clients would be like, "Where are you? What's going on?" And I could tell them what was going on. It wasn't easy, but I am incredibly grateful I made that change.

Michael: So, how many of the 20% actually came?

Michelle: I would say all but 2 households I lost. So, 90-some percent.

Michael: Wow. So, you left hoping to bring whatever, 92% and 90% of the 92% actually came along?

Michelle: Yeah.

Michael: Wow. That's quite a transition. So, what was it like when you landed on the other side? You wake up one day and you have 20% of the clients and a whole lot more freedom

Michelle: Yeah. I know. I didn't really believe it for a while, sometimes still I don't. I still have the same work ethic I had before, but I have so much more freedom and time. And frankly, I love almost every single one of my clients. It just feels so good to get rid of all the toxic people or maybe the people who have a ton, but they're the kind of people you just have this feeling in your stomach before you meet with them, like, "Do I really have to meet with them today?" I don't have any of that anymore. So, all that pain and strife paid off.

How Michelle Attracts New Clients Today [1:10:48]

Michael: So, if a big trigger or piece of this was marketing freedom, like, "I want to be myself and show myself and market myself," because that was what your coach was preaching, what changed in your marketing and what you were doing? What did you actually start doing new or different once you were on the other side?

Michelle: I started branding me and my name and not the firm I'm affiliated with. So, yes, Raymond James holds my client assets, but no marketing I do ever again in my life will ever tout the firm I'm with, but rather me and my team and our expertise. Because I lost some clients in the transition because they were loyal to the previous firm and the name and the big company. And I thought, "Never again. Because what if I leave Raymond James and I go to Fidelity or Schwab? Never again am I going to send out Raymond James' investment update? No, no, no. I'm going to send the Michelle Klisanich update." And so, we came up with a signature font, a signature logo, a website, my signature system.

Michael: So, I'm struck by that. because I have to presume that in the early days fighting for the credibility as 21 looking 12, I'm going to guess there was a certain comfort with having a big-name national firm on your business card. So, it went from an asset in your 20s to a liability in your 30s?

Michelle: Oh, for sure. Yeah. It's the reason I stuck around and made it was the resources and the training that I got at that firm. But then it became a liability and a crutch where I'm like, "No, I'm good at what I do. Not them, it's me. It's me you want." And I had really had to trick my brain for a while to say that. Now I believe it, but thank goodness my clients believed it when I left.

Michael: And so I guess the marketing shift was 2-fold, you could market you the way that you wanted you, but you also just had a shift of, "I really want to market me and not the companies that I'm affiliated with?"

Michelle: Exactly. Yeah.

Michael: And so, how do clients find you today with this divorce process, divorce offering?

Michelle: My network of my entire life and my natural market, I guess you would say, everyone in my entire life knows that I'm passionate about helping women navigate divorce. Everyone that I network with knows that. I live, eat, breathe it. And so, we've really fostered pretty meaningful deep relationships with our COIs to the point where they know when they see or hear of a client and my ideal avatar, I often pop in their brain, like, "Oh my gosh, I have to connect them with Michelle." To the point where even my previous firm, there's managers that oversee new advisors, to the point where I get referrals from them sometimes, where they're like, "We don't have an advisor that specializes in divorce like you do."

And I get referrals from other firms sometimes, which I'm like, "Oh my gosh." Because they're like, "This is my best friend. I need to know I can trust someone. You're the expert." And I'm like, "Holy cow, thank you for thinking of me." So, it's just so memorable. I sort've fell into it, but being memorable and unique just makes people think of you.

Michael: So, out of curiosity, you said when these folks see someone who's your ideal avatar, you pop in their head, how do you actually explain that to them? Do you just outright have like, "Here's my ideal avatar and let me tell them about you?"

Michelle: Yeah. I mean, in a not-so-hopefully direct and snooty way. I work on it all the time and I get a little nervous every time I have... I do all my networking over Zoom. My entire practice is Zoom. And so, I do Zoom networking meetings. And so, when a new attorney or therapist wants to network with me, when they schedule in Calendly, I call it, "Let's grab a virtual coffee." It'll tell them as they're scheduling, "Here's who Michelle specializes in working with." We do our best work if you have a client at any stage of divorce looking for financial guidance that has a million or more of assets. And so, I'm very clear to the COI when they schedule with me and my Calendly, that's my ideal.

They get an email the day before, like, "Here's Michelle's ideal client." So, when I walk into that networking Zoom, I'm not barfing all these awkward things like, "They have to have a million or more." I just assume they've directly or indirectly have seen that through all the direct drips we've done.

Michael: And again, in the context of attorneys and folks who are working with divorcees, they know how much money there is. That comes up pretty early. It's not like, "I work with retirees with a million dollars in case you know anyone who's getting ready to retire and hopefully has a million dollars." Everyone's like, "Well, my neighbor's going to retire and he seems to have a pretty nice house because it's like mine and I've got about a million. But I don't really know if my neighbor has a million the way that I do. And it'd be really awkward if I referred them to you and then it turns out he doesn't have a million that I do." I'm like, "Down the hill, we go." All that vanishes in your world. The attorneys doing the divorce, they know exactly what the balance sheet is.

Michelle: Yeah. So, I've had to go back to all those networking meetings I did years ago and reeducate my divorce attorneys who I work with. And so, when we get a not-ideal client from an attorney, I don't fault them for it, I fault me for it. I think to myself, "Oh, I haven't lightly reeducated them on who our ideal is." So, I'm going to grab some time with them and do some light reeducating. So, I just said that last week. This attorney referred me to a woman. She has $300,000 of joint marital assets. So, let's say she'll get $150,000 post-divorce. And I was super thrilled that this attorney, this is my first referral from this guy and he works at a big firm connected with really big attorneys. So, I was super stoked I got the referral. And so I said, "Hey, Carlo, it's been a while. I'd just love to connect with you and hear who I can best refer to you and just give you a few updates on my practice."

And so, we had a conversation last week and I was just like, "I just wanted to update you that my practice has changed quite a bit since we met 10 years ago." And even it's awkward for me to tell you even now because I just have to get in this headspace of, "This is my ideal client." So, it's not easy. And I'm like, "Hey, I super appreciate you connecting me with Sherry last week. I just wanted to let you know that things have changed and in order for me to give the best advice, what I found is the people who I can help the most in divorce are people with $2 million or more of joint assets, marital assets, so they'll have about a million post-divorce and that million's outside of their home equity. It's liquid investible money."

And he is like, "Oh, wow, cool. I didn't know that. That's so super cool. I work with those clients all the time." And I was like, "Great. I didn't say it so eloquently to you because I'm still working on it." But he was like, "Thank you so much for telling me." I'm like, "Well, yeah, of course." And it was just this real honest heart-to-heart conversation. So, I might have made him mad or I might have just created a new ongoing referral source.

Michael: So, what did you do with the one he sent though?

Michelle: I'm going to work with her because I fall in love with people and oh, that's the problem. I, 90% of the time, Michael, stick to my minimums, but he talked me up so much to her and she was like, "I can't wait to hire you. Carlo talked about you so much." And I was like, "Oh gosh." So, she might be a one-time person I meet with. And then connect her with someone fabulous for post-divorce work. So, I do that to save the relationship with the attorney.

Michael: So, I am curious to follow up, virtual networking over Zoom, how does that work? I get catching up with a person I've known for a long time over years and hey, sometimes it's just easier to catch up over Zoom, but are you getting to know strangers and building new COI relationships for Zoom?

Michelle: Some. I would say mostly a lot of these COIs have known me or I've known of them and we've seen each other at events from afar. So, we've met, it just hasn't been a one-on-one, tell me tell me how you operate. So, no, I would say strangers, I am open to meeting, but even strangers I do divorce networking coffees with over Zoom.

Michael: So, as you look on this journey, what surprised you the most about building your own advisory practice?

Michelle: How much confidence in oneself you have to have to make it work and how many cheerleaders you need along the way to remind you that you can do it and cheerleaders in your life to go, "Hey, I know you want to quit, but you got this." There's no way I'd be here without the... I have way more cheerleaders than what I told you in my life, and I wouldn't be here without them.

Michael: So, is that friends and family members, it's a few coaches?

Michelle: My spouse, coaches, my parents, my siblings, my sister, personal people in my life, but, and mostly coaches.

The Low Point For Michelle On Her Journey [1:21:36]

Michael: What was the low point for you on this journey?

Michelle: My personal divorce was for sure the low point. I was incredibly embarrassed and I didn't need to be embarrassed, but I was. I thought, "Gosh, if I'm a failure at marriage, I'm a failure advisor." I associated those 2 things, which was not. I was just so low, I had no confidence. But then in reality, it made me so much more humble and relatable and clients would be like, "I went through divorce. You never knew I had a first marriage?" And I was like, "Oh my gosh, I had no idea." So, I would say it's probably the low point, but it also was the glimmering hope that now has led to what I do, my niche.

Michael: So, what was it that was pulling you through at the time?

Michelle: My therapist. I always dreamed of being a part-time working mother, making 6 figures, and I didn't have children with my first spouse. And I had hoped to remarry, which I now am, and have 2 children. And so, it was that goal since I was a little girl that I wanted to be a part-time working mom, making 6 figures. And it just kept repeating in my brain, like, "I need to do this. I can do it."

The Advice Michelle Would Give To Her Younger Self [1:22:51]

Michael: What else do now you wish you could go back and tell you from years ago?

Michelle: I wish I had more confidence in myself versus the firm I was affiliated with. I talked up so many people other than myself that sometimes clients started to realize I wasn't the decision maker, that's their impression they got. And they were like, "Well, you work under so-and-so." And I'm like, "Wait, no, I don't. I have the same experience as them." So, I was so ingrained since I was 21 to talk other people up in their experience that I did it for far too long, and I wish I would've explained to people or had more confidence in myself versus other people.

Michael: Was there some moment where it shifted or had to stop or was it more gradual for you?

Michelle: I think it was more gradual. I think the moment I became independent, I had to really go inside my gut and be like, "Okay, I'm leaving my firm and starting over. This is the telling point here. Do my clients love the firm I was affiliated with and the people I talked up, or do they like me more?" And so, 4 years ago when I left was probably another telling point of, do they like me or the firm better? So, I think I'm always going to have those moments of doubt and then confidence and then doubt, and then confidence again.

Michael: So, I guess in that context, it was very gratifying and affirming that virtually all of them came with you when you made the transition?

Michelle: Yeah. I remember running down the hallway to my new coworkers like, "Oh my gosh, the $7 million client said yes to come over." And just thought those moments of like, "Wow, they chose me." And their response was like, "Well, why not? You're our person." And I was like, "You're right, why not?" In my brain, like, "You're right, it should be simple."

Michelle's Advice For Newer Advisors [1:25:09]

Michael: Any other advice you would give younger, newer advisors coming in the profession today and trying to figure out how to navigate?

Michelle: I would say, hang out with people that you want to emulate. You're never going to love everything that people around you are doing, but there's probably 1 or 2 things that they do that you're going to want to repeat. And just ask some questions. There's a lot of people in this career that want to help out advisors who are newer in the journey because they know how painful the journey can be. And so, a lot of advisors want to give back and help and say like, "Hey, I've been there." And so, ask them. Just be a sponge, ask to shadow them, ask all these questions of how they got to be where they are, what coaches did they hire. Try and get at, how did they make it work? And pick up on the things you like and leave the things that you don't.

What Success Means To Michelle [1:26:07]

Michael: As we wrap up, this is a podcast about success and just one of the themes that comes up is the word success means very different things to different people. And so, you've had this wonderful path of building a successful advisory firm and growing and getting deeper and deeper into this niche and this specialization. And so, the business is in a wonderful place now. How do you define success for yourself at this point?

Michelle: So, Strategic Coach has this question that's in front of my face right now, plastered on my desk. It's a question to always be curious about, what's the single activity that would keep me fascinated and motivated for the rest of my life? And I constantly ponder that and I honestly think it's my divorce niche in helping these divorcing women. It truly gets me up in the morning. I love it. It lifts me up. I'm totally passionate and I just want to do better and better work. So, I would say my niche in helping these women.

Michael: Very cool. You're all in.

Michelle: I am.

Michael: All in. Well, I love it. Thank you so much, Michelle, for joining us.

Michelle: Hey, thank you. I appreciate you listening to my stories.

Michael: Absolutely. Thank you.