#FASuccess Ep 431: Navigating Couples With Money Conflicts By Developing A New Toolset Of Questions To Ask, With Nick Rodkin

Resources Featured In This Episode:

• Nick Rodkin: Website | LinkedIn
• Chris Voss
• AdvicePay
• Elements
• The Game of Numbers by Nick Murray
• Nick Murray Interactive
• Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman

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Full Transcript:

 

Full Transcript:

Michael: Welcome, Nick Rodkin, to the "Financial Advisor Success" podcast.

Nick: Hey, Michael. Happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Michael: I really appreciate you joining us today and looking forward to getting to dive into, I guess, just broadly, the challenging or sometimes challenging subject of working with couples. I find in financial planning, we sort of pride ourselves on being really holistic and comprehensive. We look at everything in the household. And then the truth is often, it's just really difficult to engage the whole household because a lot of couples split financial duties between themselves.

So one person handles it, the other doesn't. Or there's the old infamous, one person does the balance sheet and all the investments, the other one's the checkbook and all the spending in and out of the house, which makes it really hard to do financial planning or even sometimes just to get both members of the couple to show up for a planning meeting. And yet, I know that at the meta level, I think financial disagreements are one of the top three causes of divorce. Divorce is one of the top three destructors of wealth.

So figuring out how to engage couples more effectively becomes a really big deal to financial planning done well. And I know this is a domain you've immersed yourself into in recent years, I guess to the point that after 15-plus years in the business, you went back and got a master's degree in marriage and family therapy. So I'm excited today just to dig into what it really means to try to better engage both members of a couple in a financial planning conversation and maybe even some glimpses of what kinds of tools does marriage and family therapy have in the toolbox that we don't already have as financial planners when we're still financial planners and not necessarily trying to act as practicing therapists.

Nick: Sure, right. Which most of us probably do anyway. We just don't...we're not licensed in it.

Nick's Path To Financial Therapy [05:01]

Michael: Fair point, fair point. Not to bring the psychiatry board down on all of our listeners, but yes, we get a little bit of it passively with clients. So I think to kick us off, we'd love just to hear a little bit about your advisory firm practice as it exists just so we have some context overall. And then trying to understand again a little bit further too, what are you doing with clients, and how has it changed as you've been going further down this road of how do we really engage couples more effectively?

Nick: Sure, sure. So like you said, I've been in the industry quite a while. I got licensed young in 2006. So I had the luxury of going through 2008 as a newish financial advisor, which, trial by fire, that's the definition there. But through my years in the industry, holding a variety of roles, I've kind of seen all sides of the business. And like you were saying, we typically focus on more of a...most planners are talking about Monte Carlo simulations and looking at probability of success in this long-term kind of horizonal, where do you want to be five, ten, 20 years from now? When in reality, as we all know, life exists every day.

And what I've found in working with individuals and couples specifically is it's nice to have a financial plan and be working towards that. But life is really what they're focused on and their relationship and just the everyday ins and outs of what's going on. So I've, more recently, and as you mentioned, got licensed as a marriage and family therapist. And that's kind of a misnomer and not to get too deep in the weeds there. But there's only a few letters that you can put behind your name. And LMFT is one of them, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. It doesn't mean I'm exclusively working with marriage couples and families. I have a lot of individual clients, and mostly couples, like I mentioned. But it's given me just a different languaging, different understanding of what people are thinking. It's not always just the numbers on the page. A lot of it is thoughts, and actions, and behaviors. And it's just given me a real appreciation for that side of it, which has given me...which has helped my financial career.

And I'm also doing financial therapy for people as well who may not...or may be in the financial planning process, but are looking for just a little help from the day-to-day struggles and stress that finance provides or gives, not provides. Finance kind of underlies every aspect of our life. And as you mentioned, with couples, it's one of the leading causes of divorce. And like I said, it's just kind of exponentially helped me help clients. And it's also helped me have an appreciation for what they're going through so I can talk to them in a more humanistic manner.

Michael: So can you help us understand a little bit more? You sort of articulated there are times that you may be doing financial therapy as sort of separate or distinct or in addition to going through the financial planning process with clients. So can you, I guess, explain further the difference between those two services, or more directly, what it is, what it means to be doing financial therapy for clients as distinct from taking them through a financial planning process where there are a couple and a couple comes out.

Nick: Well, I would say that you can kind of do both with...if you do a financial plan for an individual or a couple, you're basically a therapist to an extent, you just may not know it or realize it at the time. So there's a there's a thin line there between working with clients as their financial advisor versus working with therapy clients. And I don't blur those two. So I keep them separate. I don't know if there's a way to integrate what I'm doing from a contractual or compliance basis, I should say, to separate having a client engage...a financial client engage with me from a therapeutic side. So I don't overlay the two.

So my financial therapy practice is not financial guidance and advice. I'm not doing financial planning. It's more or less talking about what stresses and issues or patterns are we seeing that is causing someone or a couple to have financial distress. And how can I help to alleviate that? And I utilize my background in financial advising and planning to provide some clarity and empower the people I'm meeting with to realize those changes that they might need to make and empower them to do that.

Now, that's not to say that I haven't had clients "graduate" out of therapy and our team has maybe taken them on for investment management or financial planning. But I try not to do both at the same time, because I just don't want any headaches or nightmares with any compliance teams. I'd like to stay off the grid in that regard.

The Value Of Asking Client Couples About Their Money Histories Early In The Planning Relationship [08:05]

Michael: So can you help, maybe just give us an example of the kinds of issues and things you're literally dealing with and trying to talk clients through on the financial therapy side?

Nick: So I would say the first thing I like to work with couples on, specifically couples, but you can do individuals as well, is really start at the beginning and get an understanding of what money was like in their household when they were growing up. What's their relationship to money? Because more often than not, if not all the time, if your parents lived paycheck to paycheck, even though they may have had a very good income, they just didn't save. That's a learned behavior that is typically below the conscious level of the adult and they're going to kind of mirror that same thing unless something changes or charts their course a little bit differently.

So with a couple specifically, I'll ask each individual, "What was money like in your household growing up? What did you think about money? Was it something that... Was there saving going on? Was it a spending? Was it something that was... Does it make you nervous? How do you each define financial success? Are you a spender or a saver?" So I try to... I don't pit the two people against each other. I try to get on the same page, but really reaching back into kind of the beginning and how they understand money, what it means to them, what financial success means, because as we all know, that means very different thing to everyone.

And it's really just truly being curious and actively listening for, not just verbal cues, but really looking for maybe nonverbal cues or things that a person might do if their partner mentions, "Oh, yeah, I like to shop and get a new outfit every month." And then you see the other partner kind of clench up or divert their eyes or something. It's something in that moment I call out immediately because it's going back to...it's expectations of each other and communication between each other to make sure there's success between the couple from a financial perspective and anything else.

Because if we have an expectation of anyone, but let's just focus on couples, for example, if there's an unspoken expectation, like I grew up one way with money, my wife, let's say, grew up another way with money, and then I go into it, and it's an unspoken thing and now we're a couple of years into our relationship and it's just it's there and it's just...there's something happening in my brain and it comes out physically, and the same on the other side to where this unspoken expectation can lead to resentment, unspoken resentment. And then that bubble starts to come up and it presents itself in different ways. And it all basically comes back to there was a lack of communication. And not for anyone's fault. It's just a conversation that most couples don't have, is what their life was like with money growing up until the two met and really getting that baseline understanding and allowing each other, each person in that relationship to hear the other person say it in their own words.

If we were to go on a date with someone, we're not going to bring up how money was really tight in our household when we were young. So would you like to go on a second date with me? That doesn't usually happen. And it doesn't usually happen when the couple gets together unless they're in kind of a premarital counseling or a financial therapy or counseling like I'm providing now. So it's truly just a baseline understanding of what their relationship's like with money, how they view it, are they savers or spenders?

And just my little keywords, and feel free, anyone who's listening can use this. I want couples specifically to be "budget buddies" versus "expense enemies." And I use those specific... The alliteration is nice, but there was a time, and many couples I meet with, they join finances, they think once we're married, we have to share accounts. And then I noticed my wife would get her nails done every two weeks. And I'm like, "Wow, that's really expensive. Is that necessary?" And then, of course, I'd go golfing, and that was an expense she didn't understand. So then it's we're expense enemies and it's unspoken. And my goal is to get people to become budget buddies, whether they're therapy clients or whether they're financial planning clients.

Michael: So help us understand how these conversations go, and I guess, what you're trying to get to or what moment you're trying to create.

Nick: So in the financial planning context, I ask questions because I'm trying to understand goals, desires, dreams, hopes, wishes, because I'm going to craft recommendations for you to get those things and achieve those things. Some advisors I know like to get deeper into some of the purpose of money and 'why' questions because we're trying to, as I think of it, get to a deeper level of understanding of, okay, but what's really the goal? What's really the desire? Right? Maybe it's not really the money you want, it's the money that represents something. So we try to dig a little deeper and get a more values-based conversation.

Michael: But to me, I mean, you're going a different direction because we're not trying to get to recommendations. We're not necessarily trying to get to let's do deeper goal discovery. So what are you trying to take these conversations?

Nick: Again, that's more in line with the therapy side of things. But I do have those conversations with prospective clients, too, because if you want to start goal planning and you set a goal of having X amount of dollars, retiring at this date with this much income, the goal sounds great, but how people want to get there still needs to be discussed. It's kind of does one spouse want to take an airplane? Does the other want to road trip to get there? And that could be referring to risk. It could be referring to all kinds of things. But my goal in that is to make sure each other, the clients I'm working with understands each other from where they're coming from. So when they provide answers to me... And this may sound like people don't think about this, I get that a little woo-woo-y to an extent. But the change in conversations and the change in how goal planning is designed and how expectations are set on the financial plan as opposed to results-based and how much return am I getting. I've had a significant change in how I relate to clients and how clients relate to each other by having these upfront conversations.

And I think that's something that I can share to either new advisors or advisors that may be struggling, is it's really good to set the framework and frame why you're asking these questions. And you can make it up if you want to. But in my case, it's real. I'm going to ask you some questions that are going to be about each of your financial histories personally and together. And the reason I'm asking these questions is clients I've worked with in the past have a higher probability of success, not only together, but on their financial plan and the goals that they set and that we set each and every year as we review them.

So once they get that kind of framing, it's like okay, they're happy to share. But I also understand it's...money is a very vulnerable topic, something that not a lot of people are open to talking about upfront. And that's, to my point earlier, that's kind of where I was going with I don't want to set goals with clients who are on a rocky foundation that they don't even know that they're on, because once that goal kind of shifts or we have a change in the market or a correction, I'm going to have two clients, let's say, a couple react completely differently, and then I have to go back and do that conversation then as opposed to doing it in the beginning and avoiding that as we move on.

The Questions Nick Uses To Learn About Clients' Attitudes Towards Money [18:27]

Michael: So what are the things that you try to get into and explore? What are the questions that you ask as you go down this road? It sounds like one gets pretty directly at like what was money like in your household growing up? So what else?

Nick: So I would take that. And if there's if there's some kind of feedback or if I get an answer that is interesting, I'll delve a little deeper into that, and again, provide that that framing as to why I'm asking that. And with the ultimate goal of letting them know and continuing to remind them as a couple, Mr. and Mrs. Smith, this is this is for success long term. Another question I would ask is, "Mr. Smith, how do you define financial success?" And then Mrs. Smith, "What do you think of what he said? And then how would you define financial success?"

And then I make sure that that is as granular as possible because basically meaning asking more questions because financial success, it could be like, yeah, I just want to make 250 grand a year and be happy. And it's like okay, well, like you were saying earlier, what's the reason for that? There's got to be... Why 250? What does that provide for you? What are the things you think about on a daily basis? Because I guarantee you on any given Tuesday or Friday, you're not thinking 250,000 a year, you're thinking about what just happened this past weekend. Is there car trouble? Is your daughter dropping out of college?

What's going on in your life to where... I want to get granular to where they can acknowledge or define success on, maybe not daily, but at least weekly, monthly to know that they're going in the right direction along the way. So getting granular with financial success. I ask if they're a spender or saver. And while that sounds as easy as pie, it is not. If I asked a couple, anybody listening, if you're married, and I just said to both of you in one room. is John a saver or spender? And then he says saver. And then Jane rolls her eyes and sighs or something like that.

Michael: Wait, so how do you... There's a difference between asking, are you a spender or a saver and asking, "Mrs. Smith, is John a spender or a saver?" I mean, you ask them or you...you ask them individually or ask them to define each other?

Nick: Sometimes both. It depends on where that conversation goes and the dynamic. I like to meet people where they're at. I like to speak as a human. I don't want to become a robot. I'm not trying to teach people who have no interest in what the ins and outs of financial planning are in alpha, beta, standard deviation. I don't want to talk about that. I want to really know who they are. And I want them to know who I am because if this is going to be a long-time client of mine, not only do I want to know them in a detailed way, but I want them to know who I am because I don't want to have to put on a, I don't want to say a show, but put on an act every time I pick up the phone.

So it depends on the dynamic. I'll sometimes ask directly based on who's maybe talking more, who's giving me a little more engagement in the conversation. I'll say, "Hey, so who's the spender and who's the saver out of you out of you two?" And just kind of open it and let whoever wants to respond first. Because not only are the words that they're about to tell me mean something, it's who responds first. So there's a lot of behavioral things that go on. So whoever responds first, now I know who's probably the decision maker when it comes to financial decisions. And it just helps to kind of guide and craft a financial plan beyond the numbers.

And it really helps me get to know who they are as people, how they relate to money, how they relate to each other, which just makes our conversations in the future that much more, let's say, intimate, to an extent. And just the feedback I've gotten through that has been...clients just feel so much better. They feel like they're talking to a true professional in all senses of the word, but not just their this is my financial advisor, here's my CPA. Here's my this. It's like I become their trusted advisor with all things.

Michael: So what other questions crop up?

Nick: I do scaling questions in the therapy world. We call them that. On a scale of one to ten, how financially secure do you feel? And if someone says they feel like they're six, and then I'll say, "Okay, well, if you're a six right now, what would it take? A year from now, if you were to look back and be at a ten, what would have to happen over the next year?" So, again, this is... I think this is vitally important to not just therapy clients, but to your mass-market financial clients. I think it's important to multimillionaire clients because I don't think you'd be surprised, but there can be very wealthy people who make a great living and have never had these conversations. And it's just because people have money doesn't mean they know how to manage money well.

It's an extension of that. I don't have a list necessarily of specific…these are the ten questions I'm going to ask to you. It's a lot of getting some baseline things and then asking, "What makes you feel that way? How does John saying he's a saver and you rolled your eyes? What happens for you there? Why do you why did you react that way?" And it does funnel down to the financial ultimate goal if this is truly financial prospects. But it's truly just a...it's an open conversation that I try to keep structured, but I like to leave as unstructured as possible to allow the clients to feel like they're in control and feel good walking away from it and not like I'm trying to sell them something like the proverbial financial advisor, the image that a lot of people have of a financial advisor.

I want them to feel like they're in control, they're providing the answers. And so if you're saying it, Mr. Client, then it must be true. And this is how we're going to craft your financial plan based on what you said. And then taking detailed notes, of course, on all this, I get to throw this back at them down the road when things go awry or things change, spending habits come up. I was like, "Well, you said you were a saver and you're not saving. So tell me what's happening there, John," something like that.

So like I said, it's not a scripted meeting. It's very kind of open architecture. I just lean on a lot of the things I've learned in the therapy world in terms of languaging, which you can find in a lot of books about just psychology of money and behavioral economic books. If you just have a general sense of what people go through, you're going to realize that a lot of people go through it, not just the one or two people that you think might be going through it.

Michael: So I'm struck as you frame some of these in the ways that conversations happen with clients, with couples, that there's a good amount of asking them to respond to one another, to respond to something that happened between them. You're prompting them to cross over. So can you can you talk more about why or what's going on there? Because a lot of us have questions we ask clients because we're gathering input and information, not uncommon for us to ask things separately for a couple. But I feel like a lot of us then ask for them to comment on each other.

Nick: Yeah. Well, I think what's happening there for me, and like I said, this is now, to an extent, experience-based. So for me to try and put into words what may be happening between myself and the couple, I would basically say it's more of an empowerment situation. I want them to be comfortable talking to each other about these things, not just me. It's quite often that it happens where we'll get a phone call from the husband or the wife or one significant other, not the other, to ask about certain things and kind of get questions on the portfolio and how things may be going with the plan.

And what this does is it makes sure that both client one, client two, both partners understand that, hey, you guys said this to each other. I didn't put these words in your mouth. I have my risk tolerance questionnaire and they give you multiple choice, and sure, you may pick the same one, which 25% of the time, since there's only four options, that's going to happen or 20% on five options. But I want you both to hear each other, say these words out loud, because when it comes to financial planning, as we get into this deeper six months in and six years in, we're going to continue to have these conversations. And it may revert back to a lot of the things that...and it usually does revert back to a lot of the things that come up in that first or second meeting where they're hearing each other say it, which may be the first time they're ever hearing each other say it.

So it's beyond...it's a different approach than just your traditional how much, what's your risk tolerance, what's your time frame, what's your investment objective, going through all these kind of scripted things or we're asking questions, but are we really asking questions or are we just getting an answer where, like I said, it's a multiple choice that we're going to fill in a little bubble on a sheet. And okay, we're spitting you out into a moderately aggressive portfolio. I want you both to hear each other and I want to know how I can talk to you and what words you use with each other so then I can mirror that back.

Anyone that's familiar with Chris Voss, the FBI hostage negotiator for many years, and he's now doing consulting work, mirroring. And we all know this. Anybody in the sales culture in the world knows mirroring your client's tone, mirroring your client's body movement and how they...if they cross their leg one way, you do the same. But when I ask questions like this, I don't think there's another way to get into the minds of how a couple speaks to each other about money or about anything other than asking questions like this.

So that just gives me more, I don't want to say ammunition, but it gives me more confidence when I speak to them in the future using their words back to them. And it helps, again, us all be on the same page, understanding what we're focusing on. And that, again, will eventually... I know we're really on the therapy side of things now, but this is still the same model I use meeting prospective clients. It helps keep us focused on the plan and the languaging they use. I can bring back to the plan and it makes conversations fun. I'm sure there's a lot of people listening, probably everyone that has clients that when you see their name pop up on the caller ID, there's a big sigh. And it's like oh, the phone weighs a million pounds. I'll send them to voicemail. And I I've learned throughout 19 years now, I don't want I don't want those clients. And the way to avoid having those moments and the way to avoid that is getting them to be honest with themselves and each other and then them understanding who I am and just not straying from that. And it just helps all parties involved once we continue these conversations.

Using Targeted Questions To Stir The Pot And Get Clients Engaged [29:44]

Michael: So now, are there more questions? I'm always fascinated with particular questions we find that open these up. As I've heard money growing up in the household, defining financial success, spend or saver, on a scale one to ten, how financially secure do you feel? What else do you find helps to stir or advance these conversations?

Nick: I'm glad you said stir, because stir actually makes it a lot more fun. Getting clients laughing. What's a purchase? And this is only if you feel comfortable with this, but how do you make financial decisions in your household? And you'll typically get a pretty canned response, "Anything over $100, we discuss," or something like that. But then, inevitably, every single client... I'll preface it again, teeing this up and framing it properly is, "Jane, are you comfortable if I were to ask John a question that you might not like the answer to?" And then, again, you got to judge the clients at this point, but it's not a bad question. And I let them know it's not invasive. I just want to make sure we're on the same page with this. And the reason I'm going to ask it is because it just helps us all get an understanding of where things are. So she says yes, most often that's the case. I'll say, "John, what's a purchase or an expense that you can think over the past year that you might not have agreed with that Jane made?" And he's a little hesitant, of course. Everyone wants to keep everyone happy and civil. Yeah.

Michael: And there's a marital moment here. Okay.

Nick: Yeah. But that's stirring it. And you're going to get a lot more clarity once you sift through a lot of this stuff. Unfortunately, it may be a little aggressively. I don't think that's aggressive. I think people like to have conversations like that and they want someone guiding the ship. And they want...and I think what's important is setting the expectation as to why you're asking it. And so when John gives me an answer back, Jane may agree. Like, "You know what? I did feel bad about that pair of shoes, but I was in my moment. I was going to a Taylor Swift concert and I wanted to look good with my girlfriend, so I bought this really expensive pair of shoes." She might agree with it.

Or you're going to get a little pushback and like, "Well, John, you spent a bunch of money on that golf trip with your guys." And it's just... I try to keep it fun. I want to emphasize that as much as possible. We're not here to cause divorce in clients and in their relationships. We don't want to push them apart. So making sure that framing is there from the beginning. The reason I'm asking this is not only is your financial plan going to be more cohesive and successful, you're going to get along better when these conversations come up about money. And it's just...there's always an answer when I ask those questions.

So I like that you said stirring. What would it take question to feel financially secure? And then I probably would stray into some basic financial goals. Have you thought about... Have you worked with a financial planner in the past? I think that's a very nice question to ask because it gives you an idea of what their experience might have been. What was lacking in that? What would you have liked to see more of in that? So it's not always just about their actions and actions, behaviors, spending, saving. We do get beyond that after a while, but it's usually just a conversation that I start from the beginning.

And I might not even ask about that, how was money in your household growing up, unless I kind of sense it's necessary. If I have two prospects in front of me that are married or whatever together and they're on the same page, I can tell basically they bring in spreadsheets, they have all their expenses for the last years. They know what monthly budget is. They're on the same page. They're teammates. They're their budget buddies to a T, I don't need to go into that necessarily. I don't need to start muddying waters that are crystal clear for a reason. I'll just kind of I'll take that momentum they bring in and just roll with it. And, "Wow, how do you how do you guys both get on the same page with money? This is great. I don't see a lot of clients that do this."

So giving them back compliments, making sure. But again, trying to pull out their words, how they talk to each other, because the way I speak to my wife, the way I speak to my friends, it's very different to how I would speak to them if I were to go meet with an attorney. I'm going to put on my professional sense and really try to come above board. And what I found to be most successful is when I kind of break through that little bit of a barrier and just, "Hey, be yourself. If we're going to work together for the next five, ten, 25 years, I just want to know who you are because I need to know if you're a fit for me. I want you to know if I'm a fit for you."

And I find that getting past those kind of cookie-cutter conversations that most financial planning firms teach or provide on these pieces of paper, these handouts, it's just...that's kind of just a jumping off point. I really want to get to that why behind the why. What's the actual reason that you feel that 12% per year is what you need to make or the income that you need. And it all comes down to just the relationship they have with each other, their relationship with money, and what makes them feel confident and comfortable so they can, the sleep-well-at-night factor, all this other stuff. I'm a big proponent of mental salary, not just physical returns or actual returns.

The Differences Between Financial Therapy And Financial Planning Conversations [35:15]

Michael: And so I've got to come back and ask again. What's the difference between asking these questions as a financial planner versus a financial therapist? Because as you've highlighted, these are questions we can and you can ask in a financial planner discovery meeting as opposed to a financial therapy meeting. So what's the difference between the two?

Nick: So the conversation when it's on the therapy side of my world, it stays there. It stays in the, "What would you like to see change? How can we enact that change? John, do you agree or disagree? Tell me what your thoughts are based on what just happened here today." And those are your traditional therapy sessions where I'm trying to get them to kind of get out of their own way or at least acknowledge, this is how we got here. This is what needs to be changed, and then empower them to make those changes by providing them tools for their tool belt to do so.

I would say the difference is, is instead of providing tools to someone else, asking these questions from a financial perspective gives me the tools in my tool belt to know how to respond and craft their financial plan tailored precisely to them, their language, their responses, their reactivity to each other and me and these questions that come up. So it's just kind of who's taking the reins. So that, like I said, there's no real difference as to what questions I ask and why. It's just where am I going with it and who am I giving the tools to? Am I asking questions to give them tools or am I asking questions to give me the tools I need to make sure we have a successful and happy relationship moving forward as opposed to me groaning when I see their name on the caller ID or vice versa? I don't want that to happen.

My happiest clients are clients that I've gone through this process with. They appreciate it. And like I said, it's beyond...having done this for 19 years, I've had every client relationship you can imagine. I've had the one where I've read a script verbatim that I memorize six pages of and know all the rebuttal, overcome objections and all this stuff. But I never felt good about those clients. I never felt good about how I was as a " financial advisor." I was very much a... I just memorized a script. And then that's evolved to this point to now I've just recognized that my happiest clients are ones that I go through this with and I love working with them.

And if I find something else in the future that even enhances this, that I stop using this model and do something else, great. I'll align with that, too. But, yeah, getting to this point, getting to the human side of money, there's all these books about this. And I'm just going to blabber up a bunch of titles about a different types of books to read. But it's real. It's so real. And I would say... I don't want to put a number on it, but I will. Eighty-five percent of people that you're talking to, every everyone listening has concerns about money that they're not sharing with you.

And me asking these questions either uncovers those concerns they have or it allows them to bring them up to me in an easier fashion where they're not... Like I said, it's a vulnerable topic. Talking about money, sharing your spending habits is... You don't want to know how many Amazon boxes show up at my house on a given week. It's a lot. Yeah. So it just makes those things come up easier down the road. So I'm doing this to kind of just shatter whatever preconceived notion you have of a financial planner, financial advisor.

I want to be your trusted pilot this plane ride where I'm going to get you to your destination, but I want you to share with me how you're feeling back there. Just turbulence make you a little queasy. Should I avoid and take the longer route? Are you okay with that? Take less risk, let's say. Are you okay getting there a little slower, but a smoother path? Anyway, just a bunch of analogies I can throw out. But that's the reason for it all, honestly.

Michael: So when you said... I was struck by your distinction in financial planning, I'm trying to get the information for my tools. In financial therapy. I'm trying to figure out if I need to give them tools. What kind of tools do you give them at the end?

Nick: Tools I give them tend to be focused a lot around communication, making sure expectations are spoken about together openly, honestly, and safely and safely in the matter of sense of, we have a time per week or per month where I'm going to bring up how I feel about how this month went. There are some things... I'm a big Seinfeld fan, so the airing of grievances around Festivus, it can be something where I'm going to say some stuff, but you can't get mad at me and I can't get mad at you. There's like a protected time.

So that's one of my favorite things that...that's what the therapy room provides everyone, is a protected space to just say what they feel. I'm not there to judge. I'm there to listen with empathy and dive deeper and peel back layers to truly get an understanding of where someone's coming from. And that's in every sense of the therapy world, not just finance. But then if we're getting outside of that, it's, hey, this is what you're going to work on. Here's some homework for the week. Set aside protected time to speak with each other about what's going well, what's not going well. And again, if they're in therapy, financial therapy, they're there because things aren't going well. They're not there because, hey, we want to...we're only saving 20% of our money and I want to save 25. That's usually not...

Michael: There's a self-selection bias of who reaches out to sign up.

Nick: Right. But I do keep it lighthearted, unless obviously there's very serious conversations that come up on both sides. In the therapy world, there's very serious things that can occur, just like there are in financial planning. We have the passing of someone unexpectedly, disability, an aging parent, how we're going to manage those costs, who's going to be the caretaker, things like that. So it's...I hate to say and do the cop-out and say it's kind of the same, but the tools, my tools would be around how I'm going to construct a portfolio, what I'm going to utilize, what type of program I'm going to use, what can I give them to help them? Is it a Right Capital financial plan or something to that extent?

Whereas, in the therapy world, it's I'm going to give you tools around how to communicate with each other better, how to discuss your expectations of each other and what you not just each other, but together as a couple, how you're going to what you expect to do over the next three months, six months, five years and revisit those things. Like I said, it's more so empowering individuals and couples to have better conversations outside of just the therapy room would be the goal of therapy.

Financial planning is you're going to engage me as your financial advisor, you've given me a lot of the tools I need to know how to work with you in the best capacity where you're going to get the most value out of it. You're going to feel that you're getting the most value and I'm going to feel confident that I'm giving you the value you're looking for because we've had an in-depth conversation as opposed to just a strict, like I said, cookie-cutter risk tolerance, what do you want to accomplish? Here's what I charge, and there you go.

What Stoic Financial Looks Like Today [42:52]

Michael: So now, connect this back for us to the advisory business overall. I mean, we spent a lot of time on the financial therapy side of things so far. You are also a financial planner. So maybe just can you give us overall context, just the advisory business, I mean, how many of you are there? How many clients do you serve? What's the revenue or assets or management or however you keep track. Help us understand the advisory business now.

Nick: Sure. And I'm happy to give some background to how I got here, too, because it's not...a 19-year career doesn't just happen and evolved to where I'm at overnight, of course. But so I joined a friend of mine who I've worked with for probably close to 15 years. He and I both worked at a large national, without naming names, a national bank that had an advisory arm. And we worked as bank advisors. But before that, we worked under successful financial advisors.

So I was working for two advisors that were million-dollar producers. And this was after I got started in the industry. This was around 2010, '11. So I learned a lot from them, which was great. But we sat across from each other and similar age, similar kind of passion for doing what we're doing, ultimately. And he started Stoic Financial, our firm name, we're with LPL. He started this in 2022 or at the end of '21, '22. And I joined. So I became fully independent, let's say, in April of last year.

So our assets under management, as of yesterday, it was, give or take, around $106 million total. Revenue for the firm is around $700 to 750 thousand. We have four financial advisors. There's three partners, myself, my partner, Aaron Stevens, my partner, Nelson Valerio. So we're the three owners of the firm. And then we have one advisor who is under us who...she was with LPL in a different firm... LPL is very large.

Michael: Yes, they are.

Nick: You can be with a variety of firms in a different capacity. Many firms have this, but she wasn't getting as high of a payout as we're offering. So our firm, our goal for other advisors is to say, "Hey, we'll provide the branch, we'll provide the conference room, we'll provide the marketing, the name, the website, all this stuff, all the tech info, and all that stuff. We're just going to take a 10% override. You run your business however you want to. We won't tell you what to do, how to do it." So that's our fourth advisor. We're working on getting a power planner or some kind of service personnel at the moment. The $107 million is around 70 households. So not urgent. And I would say it's not urgent to get that...

Michael: That's a pretty high average household then.

Nick: Well, I do want to... Let me put the caveat out there. It is skewed to a few families as we...

Michael: As we always get…the mean is always higher than the median in advisory firms.

Nick: Some of all parts. Yeah. So it's... Yeah, it's not a... There's a few families that skew that number towards the higher end. And a few of them more recently. One just sold a business and came into a good chunk of money that's kind of sitting in cash, let's just call it. So not really focused on that. But I would say our average clients range anywhere from $150,000, 250,000 to two and a half, three and a half million. We're trying to segment that business. We do have a business model where we have, just like many people listening, have probably done. They've segmented their clients, their triple A, double A, single A clients, their B clients. Maybe there's some C clients.

So we kind of have different service models for those. We're trying to create or I'm trying to create a service model on the side of an AdvicePay. We're looking at becoming a financial wellness benefit in companies that do offer a 401(k), local companies to where they can pay for a service for their employees and we'll go in and help them during open enrollment, have conversations with them about saving and kind of doing financial coaching to an extent. I'm passionate about that side of it. How to make it profitable to the extent that whatever people think success is.

But my vision of success is not monetary. I like money. It helps alleviate a lot of stressors in life. Do I think it buys happiness? Not necessarily. It gets rid of stress. But there's a different level of happiness. There's a mental salary to a lot of the things that I do. I do a lot of volunteer work and just truly I work for free for a lot of clients.

And unfortunately, I'm admitting that. But it's the truth just because I think it goes a long way. I have gotten referrals out of them. But at the same time, that's not what I was seeking. It was truly just I like helping people. And that's kind of where our firm name Stoic Financial, stoicism, control what you can control and just kind of... I try to find the good and look for the good in people and help everyone I can. So maybe to my detriment, but so be it.

Segmenting Clients Into Different Service Levels [48:28]

Michael: So as you're trying to work with clients more in different wealth levels and segmenting services, how are you segmenting? What were you differentiating between what A versus B versus C gets?

Nick: Yeah. So the way we've decided that what an A client looks like is a client that wants advice. We don't want to force a client to take our advice if they don't want it. So we want clients that want our advice, appreciate the guidance we provide, service model in terms of touches, how often we reach out. So if it's...we have marketing software that they're going to get newsletters and they're going to get different contact points, whether it's quarterly or monthly, we ask about this upfront in full transparency. And that may change. And we let clients know, how often would you like to be contacted, what do you want the conversations to be about? What would you like...what could have gone better in our last conversation?

Definitely not saying I'm perfect and letting the client know that. Saying, "Hey, I'm not going to be right 100% of the time, but I'm going to be right more than half the time so we're going to get to where we're going." But again, giving the clients a little bit of empowerment to give us some constructive feedback. So segmenting, A clients are going to...they're not necessarily asset-based. I would say they're revenue-based. So we're looking at clients that are paying $3,000 or more per year in terms of either financial planning fees or advisory fees. They're going to fall typically in our A model unless we don't like them, to be honest, or they don't like us. Or we have these dead assets on the books that are maybe paying us, but they don't answer calls and get back to us. And that's fine. We're reaching out, doing our best.

And then our B and C-level clients are going to be somewhere in the $1,500 to $2,000 of revenue range would be B clients. And again, it's if they're... We don't have a lot of transactional clients. That's another personal piece of advice I would give to any new advisors listening, is I would try to avoid transactional business if you can. It's inevitable you're going to have some. But fee-based advisory is going to be less stress for you, less stress for the client. And then our C clients are just going to be, like I said, they're probably falling to me at this point. I've had years and years of asset gathering. I've come to realize what I'm good at and what I enjoy, and what I enjoy is working with anybody and everybody.

So I can sit at a table with someone that has $30 million and give them the professional side of what you should be doing, what they're looking for in terms of a very detailed, large-scale financial plan for a wealthy family like that. And on the other side of the table, I'm happy to sit across from somebody who's trying to get their head above water and happy to pay to an extent. I want to make sure that they're comfortable with it, but I personally find a lot more satisfaction working with people trying to get them on a significant push forward as opposed to making somebody that has $4 million dollars an extra one percent per year.

Michael: Right. And as you get down to B and C clients, what changes in the firm to you? I mean, is it fewer meetings, different touchpoints, different deliverables? How are you trying to adapt?

Nick: Yeah, it's different deliverables. It's different touchpoints. And it truly comes down to is the client interested in doing a full-fledged Right Capital plan? We also use a tech service called Elements. I believe that might have been mentioned on the podcast in the past, or you may be familiar with it. I found that to be much more approachable for a vast majority of clients because you get to page two- or three of a 30-page Right Capital plan and their eyes glaze over, my eyes glaze over and information is not being taken in on either side at that point. So Elements would be usually for B- and C-level clients. And we still do financial plans for them. Don't get me wrong there, but it's just a different communication level. But I also have A-level clients who love Elements, too. I mean, we make it available to everybody.

Michael: For folks who aren't familiar, can you explain more of what Elements is and does?

Nick: Sure. So Elements is a...more or less, it's the financial vital signs of how a client's doing. Typical financial planning, we would put together this long-term projection with the probability of success that falls between this cone of probability over the next 30 years or something like that. Elements is how are you doing today? How are you looking? What's trending? What's one or two areas of your financial life that you'd feel good about focusing on over the next six months?

And it just kind of gives you a snapshot of, hey, this is how you're doing right now. Here's a few areas that I see that you could improve upon. Elements does that. They look at how much income are you getting? Where is it coming from? What are your debts? Where are your savings at? How much are you saving? So then they break it down into what's your savings rate? What percentage of your income are you saving? At a base level, not caring where it goes, we can get into those details later, but just as a percentage, how much are you saving? And then that gives me, going back to the therapy side, that gives me behavioral clues.

So if I have somebody and I send them an Element's invitation and they onboard themselves, so it's a plug-and-play kind of where you can... They have 18,000 institutions connected to their platform. So you can log in directly to your Merrill Lynch account, your Bank of America, your mortgage, and you can tie them in right through the single website. So that just gives me a quick view of a pattern that I'm seeing. I can see what their fixed expenses are. I can see what their... If they were to sell everything that they have, how long could they live based on their current income level? And we would call that their term.

So how many is... If their term is 2.4 years and they're spending 60 grand a year, okay, well, we need to get that higher. Or I just want to make them aware of it, like, "Hey, if something happened and you want the ability to not work or if you can't work, you only have a 2.4-year runway." And of course, we can factor in disability, Social Security disability and such. But it's more of what's happening today, what's happening over the next six months, not really worried about 25 years from now. And I think that resonates a lot with that B and C clientele because typically your A-level clientele are going to have experience with financial planning. They're going to be a little more engaged with the intricacies of, let's say, a Right Capital plan, which we utilize to an extent. Like I said, personally, I have the same conversations with everyone. And I get nothing but positive feedback from it. So that's kind of the difference there. So I still use elements for our A-level clients, but B and C probably that, few less deliverables, not reaching out as often. But a lot of it falls into what the clients want. And honestly, with 60 to 70 households at the moment, it's really not terribly difficult to manage, regardless of where someone falls on that A, B, or C segmentation.

Offering Separate Financial Coaching And Financial Therapy Services To Serve A Broader Client Base [56:28]

Michael: And then to the extent that you're doing financial therapy engagements, how does that work?

Nick: I have two ways I do that. So I do financial coaching, like I said, we use AdvicePay also. I know you're a big fan of that. I love AdvicePay. I think it's wonderful for anybody listening that might not know what it is, people can just pay you a monthly or annual fee based on a plan you put together. And that could be a very intricate plan, but it could also be like I'm saying, financial coaching. So how that breaks down is from a therapy side, it's self-pay. I don't take insurance, so I meet with someone initially, kind of have a 30-minute upfront conversation that I don't charge for and just kind of get an understanding of what you're looking for. And then let them know, hey, you fall in. And not to be cheesy, but I let them know, hey, you fall into a conservative, moderate, or aggressive situation. Conservative is, let's say six meetings over the next six months. First meeting is a 90-minute. The next month is a 60-minute. Third month is a 60-minute. And then we go out into maybe we'll end with a 90-minute and see where they're at with things. So I have these different tranches when it comes to financial coaching, where depending on where they fall, they're going to...

Michael: Now I want to know, what's the what's the moderate plan and what's the aggressive plan?

Nick: So basically, if we're looking at a moderate or an intensive or aggressive level of planning, a moderate level of planning would be, let's say, a couple, dual income household, maybe one kid, typically a little younger, have a little bit of debt. They do own a home, typically. Not a terribly difficult tax situation. Both saving, but really need to get their spending under control. And like I said, with a dual income, typically figuring over $125,000, $150,000 total income. So there would be a plan that would last somewhere between six and nine months, maybe 12 months, where we would have kind of an intensive upfront. So let's say two meetings in the first month, so like a 90-minute and a 60-minute meeting. And then we wait a month or two, third month, "Hey, how are the things going that I provided you guidance on?"

So this truly comes down to financial planning, but I'm just calling it financial coaching because they might not have investable assets or they have they have assets in a 401k that I can't manage those, but I can give advice on. So still getting some profitability out of these clients. And let's say I'll spend eight to ten hours during that year with these clients. And I'm looking at anywhere from a $1,200 to $1,500 planning level or coaching agreement. I do have a sliding scale. Like I said, I'm passionate about helping people, and if they can't do the more extensive side of the expenses, I ask them about expectations, I let them know expectations upfront so that there aren't any surprises down the road. They're not calling me four or five times a month about questions that... I don't have a retainer to where I'm charging based on how often we're speaking. Although that might be something down the road that sounds kind of good. So that would be that.

And then your aggressive client or aggressive financial coaching session or relationship would be dual income, maybe a more difficult tax situation to where they have a second property, they have a business, they have just a different level of investible assets to where they need investment management, which I'm happy to do for them as well. But really, this tends to be couples-focused to where they do have a therapy need.

So I can still have these therapy conversations with them, but now I can give them actual advice, because that's that line I was talking about earlier, is that if you're engaging me in a therapy contract, the last thing I want to do is give you advice that you take then I'm held liable for and I'm not positioned as a person to do that. So with with AdvicePay, that's kind of bridged that gap for me to be able to "onboard clients," have them pay a financial planning fee, "coaching fee," and just be able to figure that out with clients to where I'm helping people that I truly feel good about helping, which I do think represents 80% of the population who might not have investible assets outside of their 401k.

But everyone needs financial help and planning to some extent. And that's... I don't want to distance myself from a lot of the advisors listening, but it's just something that I focused on and I feel good about. And I'm sure there's advisors listening, and that feels good for them, too. And whether I've perfected how to make that as profitable as it could be, probably haven't. But it makes me feel good. I sleep well at night and I love the people I work with. So there's a mental salary there that I think is important.

Michael: And just for context, when you get into the aggressive plan for coaching, how long does that engagement last? How many sessions?

Nick: I don't go beyond a year. And I'll give them typically the option. This is someone who can afford it, who wants it to the extent that they're willing to pay for it. So I won't go beyond a year. I'll give them, hey, you can pay monthly. It's going to be $300 a month. Or if we do it on an annual basis, it's $3,000 a year. Save you a little bit of money. But now we're talking about probably monthly meetings to the extent of the maximum of an hour. And whether that's a phone call, whether it's a 30-minute Zoom session, if you want to come in in person, it's tailored to meet whatever they're looking to do.

I am the deciding factor in where they fall on that spectrum of conservative, moderate, and aggressive based on not just the financials of what they're looking for and attitude and level...ability to have civil conversations with their significant other, getting to the therapy side. If they're yelling at each other on the phone or in the room while I'm trying to work with them, you're not going to be in the conservative ballpark. If I'm going to take on the emotional toll of having to listen to you both fight about this, then that's worth something to me. My emotional well-being is worth something. So you're going to fall into a higher category. And if you want my help at that point, it's just going to cost you a little bit more.

Michael: And I guess just for scoping that. So where does the conservative tier price?

Nick: Sure. So that is typically around it's a six-month engagement, I would say, more often than not. Usually not any shorter than that, but almost always never longer than that. And that's going to be priced somewhere between $500 and $1,000 for the six months.

The mental salary I get from helping a client that has never put a budget together, put one together and the sigh of relief that they have when I do that for them within 30 minutes, something like that, that's an intangible. I can't quantify that. So there's something there. So like I said, that's going to be anywhere from four to six meetings, I'd say, on the high end over the six months, probably closer to four. But it's going to have at least two 90-minute conversations. But I'm going to have them do a lot of the homework and prework ahead of time. And I know that is not my hourly rate, if we want to even say I have one, that's going to be on the lower end of it. But it feels good to me.

Michael: I was going to say, it seems literally your hourly rate kind of scales by the complexity and sort of financial wherewithal of the folks that you're working with, that the conservative plans, if you start backing the how many hours it takes, you may only be at hundred something dollars an hour. The moderates, you're closer to $150 an hour. The aggressive, you might get to almost $300 an hour. There's kind of just a scaling by the complexity. Is that a fair way to think about it?

Nick: I would say by complexity and also by the...I don't want to use the word attitude. That's the first thing that came to mind. It would be the willingness to engage, I would say. If I'm working with our "typical engineer" client or neurologists or something and I can only get them on the phone and their attention for so long, it's just... I don't know. They wouldn't fall on the lower end of that scale because somehow, it's worked out to where those that need the most help have the most interest in it. And unfortunately, can't afford the higher end of it. But when they want that help and need that help, they're much more engaged, they're much more much more amicable. The relationship is much more open and less stress-induced.

And getting someone from zero to...on a scale of 100, if they're financial, let's just call it zero, getting them from zero to ten or 20 is so much better for them than getting someone who's at 80 to get them to 83. And that's where... I'm happy to help those people, too, but what I get out of it from a gratitude, gratification standpoint and what the client gets out of it, I think there's a big side of this industry that has that feeling or urge to help those that may not have as much to spend on financial planning. It's just how to make it profitable. And if that's not right for a lot of people out there, that's just fine. But like I said, I find a lot of great value in it for myself.

Michael: And do they have to pay the whole plan, conservative, moderate, aggressive plan upfront? Do you charge them by the session? Is it a monthly subscription?

Nick: I typically do based on their affordability, honestly. So if it's if they can only afford to do the monthly cost and I'm telling them, to say, it's $800 for the six months or something like that. And otherwise, it's $150 or $125 a month. And then if they don't pay me one month, then services are cut off at that point kind of thing. So people don't need that much. If they want to pay monthly and it works out a little bit better for their cash flow, I'm happy to help with that, but I think it comes down, not only to complexity, but I want to help people who want to be helped. And like I said, that just gives me a level of gratification. So people don't come in that are angry and think I'm the worst person in the world and end up still paying me, they just don't. And that's fine. So like you said, it's a self-selection that naturally weeds itself out to where I'm working with happy people at the end of the day.

Michael: And you said there are two ways that you do this. You come from one is financial coaching, conservative, moderate aggressive models. What's the other way of financial therapy engagements for you?

Nick: So that would just be a therapy model to where I still work on a sliding scale just because, again, sliding scale in the world of therapy means you are just willing to lower your hourly rate based on how much the client can afford. So I typically don't take less than $100 an hour. My average rate, I would say, is $175 to $200 an hour for financial therapy.

What Surprised Nick The Most On His Career Journey [1:08:35]

Michael: So what surprised you the most as you've gone this path over the past couple of years of building or incorporating more of the therapy and into the advisory business?

Nick: I would say what surprised me the most is when I... We started this conversation, those questions, stirring the pot a little bit, kind of having clients talk to each other in the same room about things that I hadn't done for the first 15 years of my career. I started as an investment consultant with one firm where...a large firm that merged with another. And it was kind of...now it's your online brokerage firm. But they had storefronts, and they still do.

And then going into becoming a power planner, working at a large bank/advisory firm for two high-producing advisors, becoming a bank advisor myself, then going to a different firm for the last five years, kind of in a semi-independent role, but really having a business model, getting the therapy license, but I would say moreso the education of languaging and how to talk to people. And that... What surprised me the most is people want to be talked to like humans. And that may sound like the most obvious thing in the world. But if you're sitting across from a friend of yours or a couple that's a friend of yours, it's people like the human side of every industry. No one likes to be sold. People love to buy. You hear that all the time.

But I try to get away from the sales talk as much as possible and just be a human on the other side of another human or two humans where we're just going to have a conversation. And what surprised me the most is they love it when those conversations take place. It's nice for some people to hear, "Hey, your portfolio is up 12%." And you compare to the S&P, you're doing okay, whatever. That's okay. They want to talk about their families, their lives, their children, their aspirations, hopes, dreams.

And it's not surprising to some, but I think that's what caught me, is in my mind for all the years that I've done this is, I thought I was doing that by goal-setting and retirement planning, but I was missing a huge piece, which was just talking to somebody who's across the table from you about their life and being fully in the moment and engage with them.

Michael: Can you explain that further? I just... I don't mean this in a bad way, but what... So what were your nonhuman conversations before? What changed?

Nick: I don't know if it was one specific thing, but getting into the iceberg model that is on your website and such about the advisory process, I was spinning my wheels for 13, 14 years, just trying to make it, trying to make it, thinking I'm doing the right things, controlled. I can…as long as I'm prospecting, if I'm dialing this many dials a day, I'm going to have these many appointments, I'm going to equate to this many meetings and equate to this much production. And I was following that, and maybe it's because I have been in the business since 2006 and I had this hammered into my head from an early stage, but I was... I learned a script early on, and I don't remember the script now, but it was very much a "Here's a machine, get in the machine, and do the stuff that the machine does and it'll spit out success if you do it right in enough times."

Michael: And very Nick Murray, "Game of Numbers."

Nick: That book's sitting right next to me.

Michael: Just keep pulling the lever on the machine, it will spit out money.

Nick: Yeah. And that book's sitting right next to me. That and "Behavioral Investment Counseling." Those two books are my Bibles when it comes to...

Michael: It's amazing.

Nick: Yeah. Fantastic, fantastic speaker and writer. I would recommend those books to everyone. But it was... I think I was just not self-fulfilled. I was going into work, doing the stuff, painting a smile on my face. I had the suit on, I had a tie. I'm doing all these things that are outwardly the image of what a successful advisor is doing, but I didn't have internal gratification. I wasn't happy. Even though I was, let's say, making money or making other people money, there was just something missing. And what was missing is I wasn't being myself, to be fully transparent with everyone.

I was putting on this quote "show," and I wish I didn't. I wish I knew then what I know now about being yourself, but we all, I think a lot of people struggle with this imposter syndrome and you're...I've heard someone recently, a good friend of mine who's a wholesaler said don't have "money breath." And because people can sense it, they can smell, they know when you're talking, you're edgy, you're trying to get a sale, the abundance mentality thing. Man, all these terms and things have been hammered into my head over the years. And it wasn't me. I didn't internalize it. It was just this outward trying to fit the mold of something else.

And I think that's... I went to therapy personally. Like I mentioned, my mother got sick. She passed away in early 2020, which was before I started the therapy career. And it was just... Maybe that was a low point or a point to where I said, you know what, I'm done spinning my wheels. I'm tired of just trying to get by doing what everyone else says is the way to be successful. And I'm going to do what I enjoy. And if success comes out on the other side of that, then I'm going to keep doing that. And I think that's how I fully got into the change of, I want to have conversations that I wanted people to have with me because I realized the things I was asking people, I wouldn't want to hear those necessarily in a meeting.

I would want a financial advisor to know me who I am, not just in this meeting in this conference room, but who I am outside of here, what my day-to-day looks like. Do I have a sick mother that I'm taking care of that literally takes all of my attention? Or whatever it is you have...everyone has something. And I really think that was the impetus for this. I'm just going to change. And maybe I was on the crux of not continuing in the financial world. I never want to take my [Series] Seven again. I can tell you that, but at the same time, I don't know what it was. I didn't have that thought that I wanted to exit the industry. I just had this drive to become more of who I felt I wasn't being, I guess, if that makes sense.

The Low Point In Nick's Journey [1:15:22]

Michael: So can you give us a little bit more context on what this low point was and what was going on and what turned your view?

Nick: I'm a voracious podcast listener. I read a ton of nonfiction books, self-help, behavioral economics, this, that, and the other. Like I said, Nick Murray, Daniel Kahneman, "Thinking, Fast And Slow," all this stuff to where I'm just overloaded with information. And I'm thinking, I think the low point would be like why isn't this translating into success? And then I started to realize that I always had an excuse as to why it wasn't working. And I realized that I was making excuses and covering up for my lack of follow-through or lack of working as hard as I thought I was working.

I think this image I had in my head of what I was doing outwardly should have translated into money and income and success and just feeling good. And while it might've translated on one or two of those things, it wasn't fulfilling, and I realized I was making excuses to myself. And I always had a million reasons why the success didn't follow. And sure, things do happen in reality, obviously if you lose a family member or have someone get sick or something like that, that's a real thing. But I was just making excuses to myself about what I was actually doing. And I don't know if there was a single person... I've had managers over the years, financial coaches over the years, kind of, "Hey, how can we support you? How can we do this, that, and the other?" And it was always just kind of telling them what I thought they wanted to hear.

And whether it was me going to therapy, that probably had a lot to do with it that I'm probably just kind of realizing right now, but it was just kind of getting to the core of who I am when nobody's looking, instead of this just person that was doing all the right things, dressing the right way, showing up on time to work, and then wondering why it wasn't happening. The answer was right in front of me, and I just never crystallized it until I was kind of brutally honest with myself, let's say. And like I said, I don't know the actual moment in time it was, but it was that realization.

I would say that was a low point, but it was also the turning point to where I'm going to just start to be myself and be true to myself and what I needed to define what that was. And then I started having... I started feeling better. I was never diagnosed with depression or anything like that. And I'm sure there's a lot of that out there, especially in sales roles, but maybe there was some low-lying depression. Maybe there was something there that was just kind of in my way that I needed this kind of 15-year run of moderate success to say, "What am I missing?" And then, like I said, so call that a low point, but I'd say it's also a good thing. You need a low point to have a high point. So I think that's a good thing.

Nick's Advice To His Younger Self [1:18:31]

Michael: So what else do you know now that you wish you could go back and tell you of ten or 15 years ago?

Nick: I think one of the important things that I've realized is that most people want to be told what to do in the financial world. So I'll stick to this in the financial side. There were so many years where I was this consultative seller or salesperson where, "Here's three options. This is the one I think is the best for you and your personal situation. What do you think, Mr. Client?" And all these kinds of canned responses. Or I tried to educate clients too much. I think that is a big thing that probably could have saved me years of my career, is instead of trying to tell people why you're recommending something, the specifics from a financial perspective, you just need to change their perspective and understand their language of it so it makes sense to them and resonates with them and they feel good about it.

So I think that's where the whole therapy side of things, having those early conversations can make recommendations so much more impactful to where it doesn't come across salesy, which is what I was referring to earlier when I felt like I'm doing all the right stuff, where's the success? People want to be told what to do. They want to pay for it. If something's free, people are like, "Okay, well, if it's free, it's not good."

So realizing that people want to be told what to do. They might have an idea, but they want direct meaningful action. They don't want five, three options, or we could do this, but that's going to take this long, and we could do that. I think truly active listening to the...and not just to say that to gloss over it, but asking these questions, like what does money mean to you? What does the 12% rate of return mean? And getting to the emotional side of it, people buy on emotions.

And when you can uncover the reason people are asking or wanting XYZ on this surface level, really getting deep into the "iceberg," there's a lot of meaning under there, like let me know what those things are. And then saying, I'm going to go after those. Or not go after those, but just that's what's important to you, well, now I know why you want this. And here's the best thing for you to do. And just be that confident. The abundance mentality stuff, it's easy to say, it's easy to give advice on how to be, what to be, what to say, but until you go through it, I don't know if there's a way to truly impart that concept. But yeah, I think being direct, save yourself a ton of time. You're not going to miss out on...that one person's not going to hit the lottery the next day and all of a sudden you're going to miss out on that. Either people want to work with you or don't. And I think being direct is the best way to do that.

Nick's Recommendations For Advisors Interested In Financial Therapy [1:21:26]

Michael: So what advice would you give advisors that want to explore a bit more of the financial therapy world as you did, maybe aren't ready to go back for a master's degree on it, but if you at least want to start dipping your toe further as a financial advisor, where should they start?

Nick: If you're out there listening and you have a significant other, sit down and have a conversation with each other. If you haven't done it yet... I know a lot of financial advisors who don't even have their own financial plan, but that, or sit down and truly think about and be honest with yourself, "What would I want a financial advisor to ask me?"

And it's hard for us because we're all in the industry. We know what all these different terminology mean and all these different metrics, but really getting to the crux of the emotional side of things and listening to, not podcasts or anything like that, but listening to people, just no one walks around all day, every day talking about rates of return, retirement income, planning strategies, annuities, all this other stuff, structured notes. All that's great, but what are people talking about? They're talking about their families. They're talking about things that they experience every day.

And I think that's what therapy is, is just kind of moving back, taking a step back, shutting the engines down a little bit, and kind of, let's slow down a second and really pay attention to what I'm feeling, why I'm feeling it. I notice I have a little bit of stress when I pull up my bank statement every Monday. Okay. Well, where's that coming from? Asking clients, things like that, and just the emotional side of things, I think that's going to get people a lot further with their relationships with clients, is getting beyond just the numbers, getting, not to say the end, but the human side of money, it's a real thing.

Understanding people's relationship with money, with each other. I would ask what their expectations are of you as an advisor. If a year from now, if you were a very happy client of mine, what would have needed to happen? If you were upset, what would have happened to make you upset in six months? And you'd be surprised that they might not tell you, "Oh, well, the market went down 13% and the S&P was only down..." or, "My account went down 13, S&P was only down ten."

They'll tell you just something very human and real and truthful. And that's what people are leaning on. A lot of advisors, myself included, many times, we forget that not everyone is in this industry. And for us to get our brains and our minds outside of these four walls and our computer screens and our different tech things that we utilize and just have human conversations with people, what do you think about every day? It doesn't have to be money. Just talk to people, talk to yourself, talk to...not talk to yourself, talk to...ask yourself, what would you want an advisor to ask you? And really get away from the financial advisor role and just become a friend become your own friend, become a friend to other people. And the conversations shift dramatically.

What Success Means To Nick [1:24:43]

Michael: So as we wrap up, this is a podcast about success. And one of the things that's long come up is literally that word success means very different things to different people. And so you highlighted how dramatic the success trajectory has been for you over the past few years. But can you just speak a little bit more to how you define success for yourself at this point?

Nick: Sure. And I was actually... You reminded me, I wanted to kind of touch on that for new advisors. So not just if you're looking to get and take in some of the therapy side of this, but if you're listening, and I would define what success means to you, truly, truly, not just from an income level, not just assets under management level, because we don't think about that stuff every day. Life happens all the time around us every day and things go up and down, not just the stock market. So money isn't the only currency. I would define success to a granular level for yourself and for every single one of your clients.

For me, my time is currency. My peace of mind is currency. So I can spend money, but I can also spend my time. I can be stressed about something or not be stressed about something. And what I mean by getting success down to a granular level, sure, assets under management, income, but what does your best day look like? If you wake up in six months and you just could do whatever you wanted to, what does... When you wake up, what time do you wake up? What kind of room are you in? Are you in the king-size bed? Who's next to you? Is your dog at the foot of the bed?

And kind of walk through that day and kind of crystallize it in your mind or visualize it, I should say. And you go downstairs, what do you have for breakfast? What does your day look like? It dramatically will change how you view success. Because, sure, we all want money, but what does money give us? And I think success lies in peace of mind and emotional well-being. So getting to what you asked...

Michael: So what does it look like for you?

Nick: Success to me is freedom to control my day. Gratitude and fulfillment. So volunteering, seeing... This is... I hate it for it to sound so non-definitive, but seeing people smile, having friends, being able to spend time with others, having an impact on people, and being able to see that impact and ask them, "Hey, how do you feel now that we've gotten this done?" And having that feedback come back to me. Sure, the money's nice. The paycheck's great, but really knowing that a client is satisfied and feels comfortable and confident about their financial future, that's worth more than paychecks to me.

I like planned-focused clients, not rate-of-return clients. I would say not having expectations. And I'm getting very kind of therapy side of things, but this is the point that I've gotten to. So just to be truthful to you and everyone listening, is that the financial advisor role is not an easy thing, but it doesn't have to be tremendously hard and you don't have to make it tremendously hard on yourself. And I think that's where defining what brings you joy…so yeah, minimal stress, peace of mind, content clients, being happy to go to work every day, working with people I enjoy, working with clients I enjoy. Not people, my partners, clients I enjoy having a purpose.

Sure, I like going on a lot of trips and traveling with my wife and doing all kinds of fun stuff, but having the ability to do that and not feel like I'm missing something or tied to my desk or my email, that's success to me. It lies within a lot of those things where it's just peace of mind and stress-free because we all hear that no one on their deathbed wishes they worked more. So it's just, how can I have the biggest impact on others and myself from a gratification standpoint without sacrificing my values and what I feel is important to give back in this life?

Michael: Amen. I love that. Well, thank you so much, Nick, for joining us on the "Financial Advisor Success" podcast.

Nick: It was great to be here, Michael. Thanks for having me. And I really appreciate it.

Michael: Thank you.